The topic has been discussed many times. But today I would like to make you, or maybe some of you, aware of a few things.
First, arguing about the kidnapping makes no sense and is only divisive.
Secondly, we should always be ready for a kidnapping. Thus, no date should be set.
Third, what guarantee do you have that you will be raptured? I know many people who consider themselves believers, but with their lives they show one big destruction.
Fourth, there are some among the rapture analysts who support the theory that assumes a rapture after the Great Tribulation. You rely on 1-2 verses, mainly Paul's testifying that it will be just after.
I would like to take this opportunity to say that there is such a thing as revealed truth. What is it? Before I explain I will describe on my own example how I once understood or rather did not understand the Bible. Well, about 20 years ago I tried to read the Apocalypse. It was a dramatic experience for me, because I understood nothing of it, I felt very bad, as if I were inferior, I did not understand the text I was reading. At some point, in order to reduce this dissonance, I decided that it was a far-fetched imagination of the author, a man called Jan. Imagination like hallucinations of some painters. After years I know that I didn't want to know the truth, but out of curiosity I reached for the apocalypse, because on one of Metallica's albums there was a reference to the 4 horsemen. I think it was "And justic for all". After years I also know that it is the Holy Spirit who brings knowledge and truth and here everyone will agree with me.
The question now arises, who has the Holy Spirit in the matter of kidnapping? It's hard to judge, but I, when I choose material to compile or post videos, evaluate the person to see if the Holy Spirit can guide them
What then is revealed truth?
John 16
(13) And when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will be your guide on the way to the full truth. For he will not speak from himself, but will say what he hears, and will tell you what is to come.
John 43
(43) Why do you not receive my speech? Because you cannot listen to my word
The key verses are these:
John 14
"(16) And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another protector to be with you forever. (17) The spirit of truth, which The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. And you know himbecause he lives and is in you. (18) I will not leave you orphans. I will return to you.
Not everyone understands the Bible well. This is a gift as the above verse indicates. Even if someone has the truth revealed by the Holy Spirit, it is not in all the verses.
The rapture before the Great Tribulation is not directly mentioned in the Bible, but it is the truth revealed to God's humble servants that points to it....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZwiGWnQ_LY
Note that the authors of the post-WU hijacking videos have no viewership in other topics. They are not filled with the Holy Spirit.
There is an argument against the rapture before the Great Tribulation saying that it has only been about 300 years since this theory existed. Unfortunately, it doesn't. That's first of all. No, because Ephrem the Syrian wrote about it in the first centuries. Second, the prophet Daniel clearly wrote that in the end times:
"Many will study it and cognition will increase""
And that's what's happening.
We already know who the harlot of the apocalypse is, but we're still not sure about the beast...
In summary, don't argue when there will be a kidnapping and ...DON'T SET YOUR SIGHTS ON BEING KIDNAPPED. BE SIMPLY READY all the time like virgins of prudence.
The early Christians were constantly ready and living as if it would happen then.
"The question now arises, who has that Holy Spirit in the matter of kidnapping? "
That's the basic question, and not just in terms of kidnapping, as many people as many opinions.
"...I, when I choose material to develop or post videos, evaluate the person to see if the Holy Spirit can guide them."
I understand that you know these people personally, I don't know, you follow them in their private life? Do you realize that such a person can "play" on a video and be quite different in real life?
As many people, as many truths. I take it that those Zionist Protestants in the USA who wanted to SPEED UP THE BIBLE PROROCTES, and supported Israel financially, are right in the hijacking, since it is mainly "promoted" by them?
On forum-christians.pl I met with an unpleasant situation... I "attacked" the book of Henoch, an extra-biblical apocrypha, and Krzysztof (the admin) immediately started thinking about blocking the topic... I didn't even question the Bible, and here such a reaction...
On another forum - a Protestant who claims to be "born again"... called theories about the NWO "foolishness", and himself recognizes predestination and eternal hell for the damned. Does he have the Spirit too?
Pentecostals who address the "Holy Spirit" as a person in their prayers get all sorts of strange reactions - laughing, crying, falling, twitching, babbling called "the gift of tongues." Do they have the Spirit too?
One person there told me that before examining doctrine, one should pray, a week of fasting, etc. - that's what Ignatius Loyola and other Catholics did to whom the one, right truth was suddenly "revealed".
Girion,
You are just very haughty. Shall I remind you how you almost forced me to put a link to your blog on my blog?
That's how you behave in discussions. Krzysiek treated you gently anyway. He is the gentlest man on the forum anyway
"I understand that you know these people personally, I don't know, you follow them in their private life? Do you realize that such a person can 'act' on a video and be quite different in real life?"
Why the irony?
I don't know, but I sift through, I know a little bit about people, I know the Bible to some degree, I know behavior, etc. I combine facts. Above all, I examine the Fruits of the Spirit.
E.g. Dubis is a very humble man and he works a lot with his team on YT
"On another forum - a Protestant who claims to be "born again"... called theories about the NWO "foolishness", and himself acknowledges predestination and eternal hell for the damned. Does he have the Spirit too?"
Let's introduce some logic. Who said he had a ghost?
Did I force the issue? Fact, I cared about promoting the blog, especially since I was acting, but you also benefited from my articles. Is there no such thing as help, cooperation?
Did he take it mildly? I simply stated my opinion with a Bible quote and a link to the article. Not allowed? Such a post should be followed by an honest discussion, not a threat to block discussion because of something... The Book of Henoch? As far as I know, one adheres to Sola Scriptura, meaning only the Bible, not additional books. Brain Breaker found Henoch to be true and knocked out the entire NT... Doesn't that make you think?
As for people. Fruits can be good, especially online, but also in real life, people like that can be humble but on the surface...I know some people too. I'm not judging Dubis or anyone, I'm speaking generally.
As for the Protestant - he himself. And many of his friends in the church.
I understand that this is your blog/forum, and you don't like someone writing the opposite, I've experienced that myself with me - sorry.
As you wrote as an argument that you would burn Fr. Hencoh, what other response could be expected.
"I understand that this is your blog/forum, and you don't like someone writing the opposite, I've experienced that myself with me - sorry."
I don't want to search your statements Girion, but as I mentioned they are haughty and without love, without DS.
I have written many times comparing how someone writes with love and how someone writes without.
In your case, it's about form, not content. You are wrapping sentences badly.
As an argument that I would burn the book? Do a better search.
Just don't take it as a haughty answer.
When someone writes the same thing a couple of times and doesn't read anything, what kind of speech should it be? I probably still have to write him a "personalized" response. Or if a Catholic comes and says that "there is no salvation outside the church, convert heretics". As I sit longer in discussions, it is well known that the 'quality' of the speech decreases due to fatigue.
Sometimes you have to write with irony because otherwise it won't get to them. Maybe they'll discover that what they wrote is funny and eventually get it?
Girion! Maybe it's not a perfect testimony, but I'm with you there! Sometimes I even think that you could tighten some screws a bit more 🙂 but you'll get better... In my opinion I haven't read stupid texts by you yet. Your blog is valuable and I can confidently recommend it. You have your audience and keep it up!
Greetings
"I even think you could tighten some of the screws a little tighter."
Angelika, you know very well that you are a blog troublemaker and such incitement is not Christian.
I write about peace, love, and the fruit of the Spirit, and you write to tighten the screws even more.
I think you probably need to change your blog....
I came here for the first time today, even though I should be at work (it's late and I have to finish a huge project by morning which I have just started), instead of working I have been reading for 2 hours... it seems that something attracted me here. Maybe the fact that lately I have been feeling more and more strongly that I have moved away from the right way of life. Thank you, Author, for your texts and your willingness to do what you do to save souls.
Girion - you are very strong in egoism, pride and intellectual superiority. Believe me, not everyone on the forum is a blind hen, not everyone is a donkey. There are people who belong to Mensa, and they have humility... Why do you have such a sense of superiority and willingness to prove to everyone that they draw wrong conclusions or use wrong expressions... why do you do it? Does Jesus guide you in kicking others out or maybe someone else? I wish you a proper examination of conscience with emphasis on the sin of pride.
I am not perfect - but I 'see' you; I 'feel' you. You need a bit more refinement, peace of mind and to let the Holy Spirit rest on you
Girion, I just wanted to point out that you cannot treat people as totally deluded just because they have a different opinion than you on certain doctrines. I have conversations whether with Peter, Matthew, or others and despite our differences on certain matters it does not divide us, for we have a common foundation.
Arrivald.
I don't want to argue here somehow. But these are not minor issues [of little importance] that you can turn a blind eye to, unfortunately.
So do I, however my point is to judge someone in advance based on a differing opinion.
Example:
"The gibberish called 'the gift of tongues'. Do they have the Spirit too?"
I have written about it many times, I have quoted the Bible, I myself give testimony about it (I used to not believe in it). Additionally, I have read books, asked people who e.g. prayed about it to God being given alone which excludes the transmission of an evil spirit (the Bible also confirms this). I also checked these people by their fruits etc. When I wrote to Peter, for example, I was always willing to explain what it was all about because I know both sides of the coin.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hold it against you or anything. You have your own opinion on the matter, that's fine, but in the quote I posted above you imply that I, for example, do not have the Spirit of God in a relatively mocking way.
''The gibberish called 'the gift of tongues. "
Well, that's what I'm talking about, but I didn't want to search. This testifies to not being born yet. Girion has knowledge, but he is not born again, because:
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
If someone writes, for example: "kidnapping in front of WU is not real", and I answer him "this is a bunch of nonsense and ragged theories", will I show love to my interlocutor?
Arraivald.
Read my statement to yourself again. Where do you see that I wrote about you?
ZIE-LO-NO-ŚWIĄ-T-KOWCY
You probably don't think that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aKk16j-FVM
Is it OK?
I have nothing against you. Peace
"I've written about this many times, I've quoted the Bible"
And yet, you see... what can I say? I wrote about hell, about the trinity... and nothing gets through to you, I wrote a lot too, I quoted the Bible too. And you wrote the same stupidity, as if you can't read with understanding... sorry Can't you see that? And how am I supposed to feel? What am I doing with the rest of it...it's 12 at night and I'm sitting here having a discussion about nothing.
"If someone writes, for example: "hijacking in front of WU is unrealistic", and I reply to him "this is a bunch of nonsense and ragtag theories""
it would be appropriate for you to explain this further.
Girion you also know of quotes that prove that hell exists and that the Holy Spirit is a person. I am with this option because I have also been interested in the subject matter and more indicates that however hell exists and that the Holy Spirit is a person. You know the arguments, you can choose mine or yours. I base mine additionally on testimonies of people who confirm what I believe.
Also, immediately what I write is: "foolishness, as if you can't read with understanding". I also quoted the Bible and took things at face value. And believe me I know what you mean, however I am trying not to insult you but to show you your reasoning, which I personally (not only I) think is wrong.
Define "Pentecostal." To me, it is most often a Protestant baptized with the Holy Spirit who believes in His work in the present day. If you define a person from that denomination that way, I also count myself as one (although I don't have a church like most on this blog).
You mentioned languages in your comment and I referred to them as well.
My main point Girion is that you shouldn't treat people who have differing opinions backed up by argumentation in this way:
"and nothing gets through to you (...) you kept writing the same stupid stuff as if you can't read with understanding... sorry Can't you see that? And how am I supposed to feel? What am I doing with the rest..."
Regards and as I wrote, I have nothing against you, just pointing out some things.
"Girion you also know the quotes that prove this, that hell exists"
https://uderzwfalsz.wordpress.com/tag/pieklo/
" You know the argument, you can choose mine or yours. I base mine additionally on the testimonies of people who confirm what I believe."
I, on the other hand, never support my argument with other people's testimonies, I create "my" gospel. I am like Charles T. Russel, I start my own sect and have my own witnesses -;-.
My blog has a minimum of 4 people writing in the comments who clearly support the views expressed on the blog. Interestingly, there is one person who supports the trinity and rejects hell? Partial deception? Or just "somewhat" deception, according to you?
As for this hell, you wrote that "It is the Bible that is supposed to be on our side, not us on the Bible's side." Yes the Bible is on our side.
I'll give you a link to a blog by a Protestant (I'll email you if you want) who professes exactly the same things you do. That is: hell, trinity, predestination. He has called theories about the NWO "silly." On his blog he has pictures of Maltese crosses, some stained glass Catholic windows with fertility symbols. As my brother in faith (Daniel from the forum) rightly pointed out, this is Catholicism v.2.0.
"My main point Girion is that you shouldn't treat people who have a dissenting opinion supported by an argument this way"
And if the driving instructor is explaining to the student and he can't understand, after the sixth time he starts to get nervous, isn't it? More than once they start cursing.
I'm not saying "this one won't be saved" or "heretics to hell." I think the conditions of salvation are clear:
https://uderzwfalsz.wordpress.com/2015/08/15/jak-dostapic-zbawienia/
Is the recognition that there is a hell or there isn't a hell binding? Clearly, no.
But we are to strive for maximum purity of doctrine, for purification from pagan and Catholic influences. So I propose a return to first century Christianity, not fourth.
I am not interested in another Protestant's blog Girion. There are different people and you can't lump everything together.
I understand what is written in Scripture directly, the lake of fire, the rich man and the rover, or:
"And they shall go away to everlasting punishment, but the righteous to everlasting life."
- Matthew 25:46
Punishment is punishment, the devil will be tormented day and night too. And it is written that people will end up in the same place as him - the lake of fire. That's pretty obvious to me and as you can see I'm basing it on scripture. If you think otherwise, that's your business, but I don't agree with you claiming it's "foolishness".
As for the return to 1st century Christianity, I wanted to point out that there were signs, wonders, speaking in tongues, healings, prophecies, and overall guidance by the Holy Spirit. This was lost when the CRC stepped in. Somehow I haven't come across you promoting this on the blog or sharing testimonies, quite the opposite.
The early church was not completely corrupt, the first doctrines they had were largely from normal Christians. It was only later that they began to add extra-biblical practices. Not everything in the NCC is bad. It's just that there is a lot mixed up. Just because Catholics acknowledge the Bible and Jesus does not mean that Jesus and the Bible are deceptions.
I prefer the standard teachings, given that one of the main promoters of such doctrines as soul sleep was Russel, who could not abide the idea of hell.
I also wanted to point out Girion that you are speaking from the perspective of a person who claims to be a teacher:
"And if a driving instructor is explaining to a student and he can't understand, after the sixth time he's already starting to get on his nerves, right?"
I have told you many times:
"Let not many of you become teachers, my brothers, for you know that you will receive a harsher judgment."
- James 3:1
It is ok to share what you know or experiences/gospel. But we are to be careful about what position we put ourselves in and what we preach.
You have a knack for writing articles Girion, the more you should be careful what you write.
http://www.psnt.pl/Mt25w46.html
Not exactly an execution, there are different translations.
I don't know how you can believe in a psychopathic God who for rejecting his love keeps someone in eternal chains/weird state without him. This is not my merciful God of the Bible. pzdr
Execution? https://uderzwfalsz.wordpress.com/2015/08/13/manipulacja-w-przekladach-biblii-odnosnie-wiecznego-piekla-owlam-aion-i-aionios/
In Polish it's punishment, in the original it's "one-time corrective punishment."
Lake of fire = death two.
Kubik wrote about the rich man and the rover, though it was Luke who wrote, read there, he explained it, material even before Paul's rejection.
Will the devil be tormented? https://uderzwfalsz.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/szatan-zostanie-doszczetnie-zniszczony-i-przestanie-istniec/
"given that one of the main promoters of such doctrines as soul sleep was Russel, who could not accept the idea of hell"
OH PEOPLE... :/ MASSACRE. The promoter of the trinity doctrine was Emperor Constantine, and he supposedly did not convert, but worshipped the sun-god until his death.
Same logic. Stupid question, stupid answer. It doesn't fit in your head.
"I also wanted to note Girion that you are speaking from the perspective of a person who claims to be a teacher"
Why are you telling me something I didn't say? I just gave an example that if someone doesn't understand something (or doesn't want to understand), and one explains it several (dozen) times, then, to put it mildly, something can break in a person, because a person is not made of steel.
And just like Lajcik wrote. Rejoice in heaven as your cousin, sister, or close family member will fry in hell.
But you do even worse - you acknowledge predestination, that God Himself chooses that e.g. Zdzislaw J. will be condemned and CAN do NOTHING about it, and then tortures him for eternity. This is KRK v.2.0 - we certainly don't have the same God.
This is not the God of the Bible, this is a tyrant who does not recognize free will. How do you pray to him? You say like this: "Lord Jesus, I accept you, I am sorry for my sins, BO...... do I have any, f*cking, other choice? I don't want to suffer eternal torture, so I will choose you, even though deep down I hate you." - is that supposed to be the logic? As Lajcik wrote: "I don't know how you can believe in a psychopathic God".
Hell and the immortal soul did not originate with the early Christians, but with the followers of Plato, who professed it. His teachings permeated the writings of early Christians, including Tertullian and Justin Martyr - and that's why you think it's been around "forever." Polycarp, a disciple of John the Apostle, said that the human soul is mortal.
Truly, I do not understand how one can believe in such a thing. Atheists laugh at such a "god", maybe if they knew the truth we would save them, eeee?
Arraiv., perhaps rethinking the issue of hell will somehow illuminate your view of other doctrines differently?
I know the argument. I believe what is written and what I infer. God is not human so he does not think like us and his justice is different than ours.
God is merciful, but also just and holy.
As it has developed, you can reach me on Skype Girion. You can always write to me : )
Whereas:
The topic of Greek and meanings I think needs deeper analysis.
I believe in predestination as far as the Bible goes and it is not as you described.
The subject of hell doesn't bother me. Slogans like "how can you believe in a tyrant, etc." do not impress me because I believe that the more one gets to know God, the more one understands his motives and what justice and holiness mean.
Taze was a proponent of this teaching from which other uncool things were born, I have concerns, it doesn't confirm the rule so in that respect I can concede you a point (you didn't have to massacre though).
I've written about teaching several times to you, it's about your general writing style.
There is no love from you...you are so far away from the other Lords you are arguing with...far away from them. very far away.
Girion and what kind of blog do you have?
how to find it and what is it about?
https://uderzwfalsz.wordpress.com
This is Girion's blog
Shalom!
The Lord God has already completed His team. Let us hope and pray to be on His life list.
Hmm, if someone is not kidnapped because he sins, then after the kidnapping he has no chance for eternal life?
everyone sins
we instead of focusing on the rapture of the antichrist when he is to come and who he might be whether it be obama or someone from another world who is not even human we don't really know but I do know one thing that we need to take care of our hearts and change for Jesus even if it doesn't work out
and not focus on things we can't wait to do because we live for Jesus instead of living for those things.
I wish Peter that this and other blogs would focus on spiritual transformation instead of these satanic mediocrities and future biblical events so it would be better for all believers 😀
Well, unfortunately, Przemek, I cannot fulfill your request. Many people are here because I help them understand political events in the context of the apocalypse
Przemek I think that you are somewhat right but not entirely. Of course we should focus on the things that build us up, I mean the Bible and the words of Jesus. But we also have a responsibility to live in the truth and spread it to the world like the prophets of old. I believe Jesus meant that we should be on guard at all times so that we can learn to live our lives according to God's will every day. Personally, we should treat the events on earth like the angels as a theater. We should observe it but also proclaim the truth about this performance so that the knowledge of the truth grows... So let us focus on the events of the world and more on the Bible in order to proclaim the truth and open the eyes of the blind. Just as our eyes have been opened. I hope you understand what I mean. And put an end to your disputes on this issue... Hey you are brothers and sisters after all 🙂 .
I recommend a lecture by the author of Amazing Facts, who also had a great documentary on the NCR called "REVELATION The Bride, The Beast and Babylon"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3hXKNTMuEY
who is the beast?
Not everyone understands the Bible well. That's a gift... There are certainly passages, such as the Revelation mentioned above, but the Gospel (essence) is elementary school level. Does ANYONE on this blog not understand what Christ says, what He requires, etc.? I doubt it... "However, do not rejoice in this that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven. At that very moment Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said: I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent, and revealed them to the PROSTITUTES. Yes, Father, for this is Your good pleasure." (Luke 10:20-21) "And there is salvation in no other, for no other name has been given to men under heaven in which we can be saved. Seeing the boldness of Peter and John, and learning that they were unlearned and simple people, they marveled. They also recognized in them the companions of Jesus." (Acts 4:12-13) "But verily I am full of the power of the Spirit of the Lord, of righteousness and of fortitude, that I should declare Jacob's transgressions, his sin, to Israel. Hearken unto this, ye princes of the house of Jacob, and chiefs of the house of Israel! You who abhor justice and twist everything SIMPLE." (Micah 3:8-9). I laugh at all these mystics, prophets, etc. who claim to be great interpreters of Scripture... Well, because what do you struggle with every day? With the fact that you cannot understand, or with the fact that you are too weak to transform the word into action? ... "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and fulfill it." Notice that Christ, speaks of "not understanding" or "not comprehending" only in the context of the Pharisees, blind and deaf to the Word... "Become like children" - not scribes... If you don't mind I would ask for more Gospel and less about hijackings, apocalypses, NWO's and wars.
Bravo, I sign my hands and feet.... thank you for this post
"If you don't mind, I would ask for more of the Gospel and less about hijackings, apocalypses, NWOs and wars."
That is the profile of this blog and no reader will be able to set the blog author for themselves. This blog is me,. me is this blog.
Don't want to? Don't read. It's simple.
I devote a lot of time to this blog and I've been doing it for free for almost 3 years. So please spare me such requests with a dose of malice.
I've been eliminating the stress of this blog lately and I can see that it's a fine line.
Listen, there are a bunch of other blogs, books, and most of all the Bible.
No one has to be here by force, reading because they don't like something in the blog....
Besides, it is written on the "about blog" page that it is not strictly a biblical blog" This means that it also deals with everything that has to do with the forces of Satan, the debasement of people, etc.
Be consistent.
It is a choice. The Lord God gave us free will.
Someone who denies a blog or author and reads on is simply a HIPOCRAT TO THE QUADRATE.
You might want to put it up, because his episodes are very valuable, and who knows if anyone doesn't need it to know God. He explains it very thoroughly and bases it on the Bible. There are 12 episodes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI4ORb9m468
PROJECT REALITY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI4ORb9m468
Actually a very good lecture, so far I have only watched the first part and I am already looking forward to the next parts. I highly recommend it to everyone.
Thanks to Paula for the insert.
P.S. Piotr, in my opinion, it is worth putting these lectures in a separate topic.
May the Heavenly Father bless you in the work of evangelization.
ok, I'm putting it up even though I haven't watched it yet. You take the responsibility. I trust you 🙂 .
such good words - "It's normal that we don't understand everything that is written in the Bible. After all, God wrote it."
http://www.moriel.org/online-sermons/76-sermons-in-polish/6512-the-future-history-of-the-church-1-polish.html
Jacob Prasch - has really good teachings, because he knows well the Jewish background of the time and doesn't like mainstream religions
You're right Peter, it doesn't matter when the kidnapping is, we should be alert and ready every day, but...
A while back I came across a video like this that made me realize that the rapture could be after the Tribulation. So far I was convinced that before, and that made me not so worried about even the mark of the beast to be rejected. And if the elect also come to face the WU, are we strong enough to survive it, to resist the evil.
I leave that to the judgment of the readers, each must decide for themselves. For me, the verses in Matthew say that the elect will also experience this time period.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sF5ccbL94Ko
There are 4 parts to this movie.
Who is the great harlot? I must have missed something. Greetings
Again, that a duplicate?
ok, it's already fixed to add comments, cheers
USA? Please give one answer
...
Roman Catholic Church.
According to other sites/blogs: Jewish bankers (redoctobermsz.wordpress.com), Sephardic Jews (yeshu.pl). Misinformation because in biblical language woman is symbolized by religion. The harlot/prostitute betrayed, meaning she had to be with God [Jesus] at some point, and the Jewish bankers had nothing to do with him from the beginning.
The way I see it.
"Disinformation because in biblical language, woman is symbolized by religion."
In the Bible, woman or womanhood (when taken as a symbol) means a congregation (Israel), but also a city (quite a few examples in the ST).
Oh, and just so you don't think that the harlot is some unknown creation. The harlot and the beast are made up of the same people, or rather the descendants of those people. KRK = Gnostic founders (Tertullian, Origen) [Gnosticism = offshoot of the Jewish Kabbalah] + Jesuits [Jesuit founders were Jewish Kabbalists] + various secret orders [Templars = protoplast of today's Freemasonry], it is worth adding that Rothschild belonged to the Catholic Knights of Malta, a secret order serving the Pope.
So it comes out that the same people [Jewish cabalists, satanists] are on the harlot side as on the "church-fighting" side, i.e., Freemasonry and illuminati.
It is a Hegelian dialectic, designed to force the unsuspecting masses to support one side and make a big nativity scene.
Thank you for your honest answer:)