Truth in the end times. Biblical Christians.

Biblical Christians. THE TRUTH FOR THE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS CHRIST "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

DOES THE BIBLE TEACH THAT THE CHARISMATIC GIFTS HAVE CEASED IN OUR DAY?

DOES THE BIBLE TEACH THAT THE CHARISMATIC GIFTS CEASED IN OUR DISPENSATION(TIMES)

 

As you know, the subject of charismatics and the gifts has been bothering me for some time. I have been convinced by arguments from both sides. Both the opponents and the charismatics.

Due to the fact that I am quite a stubborn man in search of the truth, I am pursuing the topic further. I found a very reliable text on the subject mentioned above.

Thank you Guzzik for translating this important text.

 

 

 

DO THE BIBLE TEACH THAT CHARISMATIC GIFTS SET UP IN OUR DISCIPLINE(the time period of God's work)?
Geoffrey Grider | May 18, 2015 |

NOT ONLY WAS THE REVELATION MADE, AND COMPLETED, BUT THE SAME IS TRUE OF THE SIGNS ACCOMPANYING THE REVELATION PROCESS.

, "Then Jesus said to him: Unless you see signs and wonders, you will not believe. "John 4:48 (I used the Warsaw Bible, the original article used the King James Version)

Editor's Note: This article will prove through Scripture, without a shadow of a doubt, that the apostolic gifts of healing and "tongues" will cease with the end of the apostles. We dearly hope that you will read this article, and compare/check it against the Bible, but watching any of these videos posted here will also make clear the fraudulent nature of the modern Charismatic and Pentecostal movements.

[Cessationism] - The doctrine that says spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing died out with the apostles of Jesus Christ.

Can cessationism, the view that says spiritual gifts have expired, be proven? Some say that cessationism cannot be conclusively proven through Scripture. We believe, however, that the termination of revelation, and of the sign-gifts in apostolic times is very clearly communicated by the Word of God, so clearly, in fact, that an opposing view has only emerged specifically in the last 100 years.

The term cessationism comes from a great seventeenth century creed like Westminster and Baptism. Both use the same word. Speaking of how God has revealed his will, established it in Scripture, the creed says, "God's former ways of revealing his will to his people are now broken. That word is not actually from the Bible, but doctrine is.

Not only was revelation done, and interrupted/terminated, but also the signs accompanying the revelation process. Here is a summary of six biblical evidences that the revelatory gifts have been interrupted[visions, words of knowledge, words of wisdom, and prophecies], and also the signs-gifts[healings and speaking in tongues]. God still heals, of course, but in answer to prayer, not through the hands of a gifted healer.

The controversial passage in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 will not be used in this article to prove the end of the gifts. We will refer to passages that we believe are conclusive.

1. NOT SINCE THE TIME OF THE APOSTLES
The first evidence for cessationism(The end of revelation and sign-gifts) is that healings and miracles could only be done by the apostles, and were their special authenticating sign. In 2 Corinthians 12:12 Paul states: "The marks confirming the dignity of an apostle have occurred among you in all patience, in signs, wonders, and manifestations of power."

There were certain people in the church at Corinth who questioned, confronted and challenged Paul's apostleship. To defend himself, he called attention to his gift of healing and other miraculous signs, stating that only the apostles could do such things.

"The marks confirming the dignity of an apostle have occurred among you in all patience, in signs and wonders and manifestations of power." 2 Corinthians 12:12

An apostle was someone who accompanied the Lord, saw Him after His resurrection, and was called by Him personally. As a special witness of the resurrection he was given the power to heal. He was also one who was to be shown 'all truth' by the Holy Spirit (John 14:26 and 16:13), and to write or confirm the inspired Scriptures.

Believers needed to know who was a true apostle in order to respect their unique aurorite. They recognized them by their healings and other signs. People who were not part of the team of apostles (which consisted of two called assistants) could not do these things. If they were able to do them, no one would be able to distinguish who was a true apostle.

KENNETH HAGIN PERFORMS "HOLY LAUGHTER" WHILE "GETTING DRUNK" IN THE SPIRIT:

Scary, scary stuff here. This Charismatic Movement has driven millions away from true Bible doctrine and turned them into such frauds.

In Acts 2:43 and 5:12 it is again clearly shown that all miracles were performed 'by the hands of the apostles'. It was solely their sign. Also, in Hebrews 2:3-4 the gift of healing is closely associated with the apostles. Paul was an apostle through the privilege of seeing the risen Lord, and through a direct calling by Him. His deficiencies in training by Christ were made up for by his receiving special and unique revelation. He stated that he was 'the only one born out of due time' (1 Corinthians 15:8 ), indicating that he was the only apostle outside the original team and therefore the last. (Modern claims to apostleship do not meet biblical qualifications and are inappropriate and erroneous)

When people say that cesstionism cannot be confirmed by Scripture, they forget that Acts specifically says that healings and other miracles were only for apostles who had already passed away. As the churches developed and multiplied, Peter went to Lydia, then to Joppa, spectacularly healing Aeneas, and raising Dorkas (Tabitha) from the dead. The whole community was amazed because none of the other believers in those places were able to do such things.

When the boy fell out the window at Troad, there was only one person present who could raise him from the dead, and that was Paul. The charismatic idea that healings were performed by numerous Christians simply cannot be found in the New Testament. Only the apostles are recorded as doing the healings, along with two apostolic assistants or delegates, Stephen, Philip and possibly Barnabas.

The only time anyone outside of this group did a healing was when the Lord commanded Ananias to heal Paul. There is no other healing besides that in the early church. The Pentecostal/Charismatic idea that healings continue to take place by Christians on a large scale is not found in the Bible. Thus, the infallible notes in Scripture show the entire Charismatic approach to healing to be a mistake based on myth. The records prove that healings and mighty works were reserved for a class of people who have passed away.

2.TEMPORARY PURPOSE OF LANGUAGES

The second evidence that cessationism can be proven through Scripture (signs-gifts have ceased) concerns speaking in tongues. It is a Biblical statement that speaking in tongues was given by God more specifically as a sign to the Jews, signaling to them the coming of the new era of Messiah.

In 1 Corinthians 14.21-22 Paul says this:
"In the law it is written: By men of strange tongues and by the mouth of strangers will I speak to this people, but even so they will not listen to me, says the Lord. Therefore speaking in tongues is a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, and prophecy not for unbelievers but for believers."

In other words, the gift of tongues was miraculous proof to the Jews who had resistance to believe in Christ that a new era and a new church order had come. It was not for the benefit of Jews who believed, but as a sign of promise and warning to those who would not believe. It was not intended for the Gentiles, but for the Jews.

BENNY HINN PERFORMING HIS FAKE "HEALINGS"

If you can watch this video and see anything happening Biblically there, then something is seriously wrong. At the very least, this kind of nonsense is tragic, a deceptive joke, and worst of all it is demonic activity.

Paul quoted from Isaiah 28.11 the chapter in which Isaiah predicts the coming of Christ. As a sign to the Jews, Isaiah says that the people will be led by those 'stammering and speaking a foreign tongue. Gentile tongues will lead them, the worst experience of humiliation for the Jewish people. At the same time it was a sign that the Messianic era would bring the Gentiles into the church, and the Gospel would be preached in other languages.

It will be a sign of a new era when God will bring down the flag of the Jewish church, and fly the flag of the Jewish/Pagan church of Jesus Christ. The unbelieving Jews who have denied Christ and clung to Moses' garment will encounter the Word of God preached to them in barbaric, Gentile languages.

All of this must have happened, beginning on the day of Pentecost(Pentecost, Pentecost, Pentecost, Shavuot). The Jews were called and warned accordingly, but tongues are not mentioned outside of Acts and 1 Corinthians 12-14, which shows that they accomplished their purpose of warning the Jews that a new era had come. This proclamation of the church age was accomplished when the apostles were alive and the sign was withdrawn. What appears in the speaking in tongues today is not done in the presence of doubting Jews, and has nothing to do with the sign of the New Testament. The sign that the church age has arrived has fulfilled its purpose, and has passed through reality. The gospel is now preached in virtually every language in the world, and the sign that this will happen has long since expired. The purpose of tongues (according to Paul's teaching) has been fulfilled, proving their withholding.

3. LANGUAGES WERE ACTUAL LANGUAGES

The third evidence for cessationism added to the second, is that -this gift of true tongues was given on the day of Pentecost (and for a while thereafter), which has never been seen since. It should be obvious to us that the miraculous tongues of Acts and 1 Corinthians have never appeared since those days.

Speaking in tongues in modern times is never any known human language, instead it is just meaningless, chaotic speech. Nothing miraculous takes place. In New Testament times the speaker in tongues was given by the Spirit the ability to speak in a real language he had never learned, and the people who grew up with him were amazed. Jewish people were present (as it was a sign mainly for them). On the day of Pentecost, many Jews living in foreign regions heard their own language spoken, confirming the authenticity of those speaking in tongues. After Pentecost the Spirit will give miraculous gifts of understanding for interpretation so that the authenticity of the language will be confirmed. Nothing like this has happened since biblical times.

Today those who promote speaking in tongues point to 1 Corinthians 13:1 where Paul, speaking hypothetically, says that even if he spoke in angelic tongues and had no love, it would be for nothing. In a desperate search for passages, charismatic teachers reach for Paul's words as justification for ecstatic, unintelligible tongues, but it is understood by any thinking person that this is a gross misuse of the verse.

By describing intelligible languages, the Bible effectively warns us that these gifts have been withdrawn. They simply have not happened at any time in history, anywhere in the world, since the beginning of the Church. What is happening today is that people (who may sincerely be Christians), in order to fulfill what their leaders believe to be correct, are trying to speak by skirting the rules of speech. However, they do not speak in true tongues, or even understand what they are saying.Cessationism is clearly taught in Scripture, due to the fact that it very accurately describes the actual languages mentioned in Scripture which cannot be attributed to anything that has taken place since.

Since Bible times we have had wonderful reformation events and mighty awakenings when the Spirit of God has worked willingly with exceptional power. To date there has not been a single recorded confirmation of speaking in a real language that was never learned. This is strong evidence that the gift of Biblical tongues-speaking has died out.

4.THERE IS NO INSTRUCTION TO APPOINT APOSTLES

The fourth proof of cessationism is this: There is no instruction in the New Testament regarding the calling of apostles, prophets, healers, or anything of the sort. This is a matter of great importance because God has given a detailed pattern to the church in the New Testament. It is true that some Christians do not believe that the Bible provides a blueprint for the church, but most of the people who are of the Baptist, Bible-believing faith believe it.

MODERN CHAOS: THE CHARISMATIC AND PENTECOSTAL MOVEMENTS

please note:NTEB[Now The End Begins] does not endorse the complete teaching of Calvinists like John MacArthur, Paul Washer and others. They make some good points which is why we decided to present this video.

The apostle Paul told us repeatedly to be the most careful imitators of him in our church polity and behavior, and that the pastoral epistles set forth how we should act and function in God's church. We have been given an exact pattern for the church for all time. We have instructions that carefully define how to select preaching and leadership elders and deacons, but no instructions on how to call apostles (because they were not to be continued), or how to recognize or accredit a prophet (because the gifts accompanying revelation ended when the Bible was finished). There are also no instructions on the appointment of healers.

This is not merely an unsourced argument, but evidence that these offices and functions are not intended to continue. The instructions for every organizational matter of the church have been completed and detailed and are sufficient for the church until Christ comes again. We are disobedient to God's perfect standard if we make appointments in the church that He has not instructed and commanded. We are disobedient to Scripture.

How can it be said that there is no Scriptural proof that the gifts have ceased, when the standard for the church gives no instructions for the continuance of inspired spokesmen and performers of miracles, signs? This is conclusive evidence of cessationism-- unless we do not hold to the Bible sufficiently, and do not believe that God has given a standard for His church.

5.REVELATION IS OVER

The fifth evidence for cessatonism is that the Bible clearly teaches that revelation is finite. There can be no new revelations after apostolic time. We have now recorded that in John 14:26 and 16:13 the Lord Jesus Christ said twice to the apostles that the Holy Spirit, when He comes, will lead them into all Truth.

They will be the authors of the books of the New Testament, and they will authenticate the inspired books of the New Testament which are not their own creation. Soon all Truth will be revealed, and there will be no more revelation of Scripture after the apostolic era. The Word of God will be complete.

How much/All of us enjoy it! What a state we would be in if people could pop up here, there, and everywhere (as they do in the charismatic world) giving new revelations. Who would know what is appropriate, and true? But Scripture is the final criterion for everything, being complete, and perfect, and sufficient, and trustworthy.

Jude was able to speak of a faith that was 'Once delivered to the saints'. His letters were written possibly 25 years before the last book of the Bible, but late enough for all the major doctrines and instructions of the church to be revealed. At this late stage of revelation he speaks of faith once delivered, or better, once and for all delivered. It is actually finished; soon (from Judah's perspective) there will be no more revelation.

The closing passages of the Bible warn that nothing can be added to or taken away from the words in the book of Revelation, but this clearly applies to the entire Bible, not just one book. We know this because the warning is roughly equivalent to that given by Moses in the first book of the Bible (the first five were originally one book), namely Deuteronomy 4:2, 'You shall add nothing to what I command you, and take nothing away from it, keeping the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you.' (words repeated by Moses in Deuteronomy 12:32).

THE END OF REVELATION IS ALSO PROVEN BY THE FACT THAT THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS ARE DESCRIBED AS THE FUNDAMENTAL STAGE OF THE CHURCH.

In Ephesians 2.20 the church is described as follows - 'Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets[That is - New Testament prophets], whose cornerstone is Christ Jesus Himself. A foundation is something finished and stable while the building is still being constructed.

What about Joel's prophecy, quoted by Paul at Pentecost, that when the Spirit is poured out, all believers, men, women, old and young will prophesy? Is it not understood that this will happen literally until the Lord comes again? No, because our understanding of this prophecy must agree with the undeniable teaching of the Bible that revelation will soon be finished, and interrupted.

It is this complete revelation (mainly the Gospel) that will be preached by believers of all ages, by men, women, to the whole world, until the end. Believers will continue to have visions and dreams in the sense that they will embrace, ponder, and proclaim the undeniable 'visions and dreams' given to them in the Bible. They will not be 'prophesying' in the sense of receiving new revelations. They will also dream dreams about Biblical plans and conquests. In this sense, Joel's prophecy is still being fulfilled.

Extraordinary manifestations such as tongues had clearly disappeared by the time Peter wrote his two letters, in which he does not mention at all that these gifts of the early church were still functioning.

As revelation was finished, we see that the apostolic and prophetic task was over. And if the gifts accompanying revelation have ended, the same is true of the authenticating marks of inspired writers. We remember Paul saying, 'The marks which confirm the dignity of an apostle have appeared among you in all patience, in signs and wonders and manifestations of power.'(2 Corinthians 12:12).

How can you say that there is no biblical evidence for cessationism when Scripture emphatically shows that all revelation was finished, like the foundation, at the beginning of the church age?

6.SCRIPTURE TESTIFIES TO THE END OF THE GIFTS

The sixth evidence for cessationism is that Scripture says they were in the process of being withdrawn at the same time. For example, Paul, who was gifted with the apostolic power to do signs and wonders and mighty works, could not, as time went on, heal Timothy, nor Trophimus, nor Epaphroditus.

We also see the withdrawal of the gift of healing in James 5, where James gives instructions on praying for the sick, and how elders can lay hands on the bedridden. It is clear in this chapter that there is no anointed healer in the range, only elders who pray.

Anointing is mentioned, but the Greek term for religious anointing is not used. The Greek uses a very practical word that means to 'rub' with oil, more as a cure for sores. James accurately says, 'Do not be so heavenly minded that you overlook earthly ways, but bring physical relief to the suffering person.'

What matters is prayer. It is clear from James' instruction that no gifted healer came to command healing, or to heal with a healing touch. The laying on of hands by ordinary elders is a symbolic act, showing the church's love, care, and responsibility.

This chapter of James contains four exhortations to prayer, and it follows his teaching that we should say, 'If the Lord wills, we will live, do this or that.' We can and must pray for healing, but it may be God's will that the sufferer testify to God's grace in sickness. The main point for us in this article is that there is not a single person with the power to heal in James chapter 5. Healing is done by God in answer to prayers. The attitude of the church in progress shows prayers for healing, remembering that some are called to live as 'examples of suffering and patience' (James 5:10).

The fact that James did not mention the gift of healing unmistakably shows that having the power to heal was stopped quite early in the apostolic era.

WOULD A NEUTRAL READER ASSUME THAT BIBLICAL GIFTS ARE FOR ALL AGES?

It was suggested that if a new convert with no experience of church life was locked in a room with a Bible, it would never occur to that person that the charismatic gifts had ceased. The truth is just the opposite. There are many people (some we know) who come from other denominations who were converted to Christ through personal/private Bible reading and then found their way to church. Through the Bible alone they have not received the hope of the charismatic stage. Far more often - and more so with the passage of time - believers have left charismatic churches when they perceive that what takes place there is not what they found in the Bible.

In carefully reading the Acts of the Apostles, they discovered that only the team of apostles did the healing, and they felt that they had been misled by the Pentecostal-charismatic view as had many people. Some wondered what the original meaning and purpose of tongues was, and when they learned from Paul that tongues were primarily for the Jews, they again felt misled by their teachers.

They also felt misled when it became obvious that tongues were real speech, a much more supernatural matter than unintelligible sounds. Then, as soon as these believers appreciated the importance of the biblical pattern for the church, the question sometimes arose in their minds-"Where in the Bible today are the instructions for calling apostles, prophets, and healers? They discovered that there were none, and they began to be more critical of the teaching they received.

Then the question arises as to the authority and sufficiency of Scripture, and they wonder, 'Is not revelation complete? How then, can modern prophecies be valid and inspired? It becomes obvious that all these 'authoritative' prophecies they have heard are a huge mistake, and a delusion. Many thoughtful believers themselves recognize that for charismatics, Scripture is secondary in importance to human imagination and mysterious experiences.

Finally, the more these friends study the Word, the more they see evidence that the signs disappeared soon after their spectacular appearance. This does not mean that the Lord does not lead His people to remember duties or truths, or exhort them to do certain things, or warn them of impending danger. These are God's suggestions, not revelations or gifts.

In church history, there are recorded cases of people having a notification from God concerning some threatening event or person, but these are never revelations or doctrines. We find such cases in times of severe persecution. For example, up until Perestroika in Russia, we heard of a very credible case where God's key servants were miraculously rescued from detention because the Lord impressed upon someone not to go to a particular place. It was later discovered that the KGB-police had left an ambush waiting for them. However, the recipient of such a suggestion was not given a gift, nor certainly any authoritative revelation of doctrinal truth. God can save and bless His people in any way, but this is in no way a reappearance of apostolic or prophetic gifts given to individuals.

DAMAGE CAUSED BY CHARISMATIC TEACHING
Many charismatics note the vast gulf between the Bible and what they have been taught. Such doubters are often disturbed by the fact that a large number of Catholics who rely on Mary, the Mass[?], and works for salvation are also able to speak in tongues and prophesy. Many also perform worship in exactly the same way as Protestant Charismatics.

Those doubting charismaticism can also hear that non-Christian cults also speak in tongues. You don't have to be a saved Christian to speak in charismatic tongues because it is not a true gift of the Spirit.

There are many sincere Christians in the charismatic movement, but we believe that the attempt to revive revelation and the sign-gifts is a very pernicious mistake. We can see schools of thought springing up in huge sections of the movement in which Scripture has virtually disappeared, covered under unbiblical extravagances. There is now a huge charismatic group that denies the penal substitution of Christ, and even denies the Trinity. (Some of the best known charismatic preachers and authors deny the doctrine of the Trinity.)

World popular music dominates charismatic churches, music of even the most extreme and ungodly kind. The theatrical antics of money-grabbing charismatic leaders can be seen at any time on religious TV, and the heresies of the gospel of success are seen everywhere. Many charlatans and scoundrels have built themselves a large entourage promoting their supposed 'healings' around the world. Even music-majority-transmitted techniques are presented as spiritual miracles, in a respectable church.

The powerful current that constantly drives charismatic circles further and further away from the Bible is evidence of a serious fundamental error, namely, the idea that the revelatory signs-gifts are for all time. Experiencing them involves a twofold mistake: first, reducing the gifts to something supernatural (turning real tongues into unintelligible utterances); and second, moving away from Scripture, which encourages imagined experiences of dreams, visions, 'words from the Lord', and similar revelations. There is here also an injury done to the individual Christian whose faith is diverted from the Lord and his Word, to phenomena and sensations.

We sincerely pray that God will rescue those who are truly his children from the increasing damage of this wildly erroneous departure from Scripture. It is perfectly possible to prove that cessationism is a Biblical truth.

ACCEPT NTEB'S CHARISMATIC GIFTS CHALLENGE:If you have come this far, congratulations, you have just read the entire article, and you did not react emotionally after reading the headline. If you believe that charismatic and apostolic gifts are for today, we offer you a challenge. Come to Florida, and accompany us to a local hospital. We will go from room to room, and you will lay hands and pray for the really sick and injured people, and we will record a video of the result and put it on the front page of this website. If you can instantly heal the sick people there to the level where they can supernaturally get up from their beds being fully healed, and being verified through a physical examination diagnosis, NTEB will retract this article. The following passage describes what kind of healing I mean:
Peter said, "I have neither silver nor gold, but what I have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, come! And taking him by the right hand, he lifted him up; and immediately his legs and his ankles were strengthened, and he sprang up, and stood and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking and leaping and praising God." Acts 3:6-8

It's like, Charismatics and Pentecostals, are there any takers?

Source:

www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=33135

Updated: 21 May 2015 — 19:39

122 Comments

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  1. I am getting down to reading, the article is long, I will write first where I am from and what my opinion is on this issue: I attend a Pentecostal church in Tarnowskie Góry, I don't have the gift of tongues, but in my church some people speak in tongues, one spoke Latin or similar for a while.

    As far as falling "in the Spirit" is concerned, I witnessed it twice, once in Czestochowa, once in Ruda Slaska. I did not see any healing with my own eyes, only testimonies that someone's leg or calf stopped hurting, but I did not experience healing.

    In my church there are no such kundalini shows, everything is based on the Scriptures.

    Back to the article, I read the beginning and it's already blatantly eye-rolling:

    Not only was the revelation made, and discontinued/completed, but so were the accompanying signs in the revelation process.

    Acts 2:17-18
    And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith the LORD, That I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see, And your old men shall dream dreams; Even upon my servants and my maidservants I will pour out my Spirit in those days, And they shall prophesy.

    I would like to add that in my church about 3 people have dreams and the interpretation of those dreams.

    1. POINT 2 and 3 are interesting:
      Speaking in tongues in modern times is never any known human language, instead it is just meaningless, chaotic speech. Nothing miraculous takes place.

      The main purpose of the gift of tongues is to glorify the Creator, and we are to strive for spiritual gifts - the entire 14th chapter of 1 Corinthians.

      (14) For if I pray, speaking in tongues, my spirit prays, but my reason does not assimilate it.

      (16) For if you praise God in the spirit, how can a mere believer who is present say at your thanksgiving: Amen, when he does not understand what you say?

    2. What is happening today is that people (who may sincerely be Christians), in order to fulfill what their leaders believe to be correct, are trying to speak by disregarding the rules of speech. However, they do not speak in true tongues or even understand what they are saying.

      1 Corinthians 14:14
      For if I pray, speaking in tongues, my spirit prays, but my reason does not assimilate it.

    3. POINT 4
      We have instructions that carefully specify how to select preaching and leading elders and deacons, but no instructions on how to call apostles (because they were not to be continued) or how to recognize or accredit a prophet (because the gifts accompanying revelation ended when the Bible was finished).

      1 Corinthians 14:29-32
      As for the prophets, let two or three speak, and let the others judge; but if any one of the sitters has received a revelation, let him first be silent. For ye may all prophesy in turn, that all may learn something, and that all may be encouraged. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets;

      In our church there are 3 people, 2 mostly, who have dreams and prophecies.

      1. And nobody appoints them but God, who will appoint me in the church if I have no sleep? 😛

    4. I read a little more, but it's too long for me, and if Revelation is over, why are there two witnesses described in Jerusalem in the book of Revelation?

      As for me this article is an attempt to push your point of view, too many claims too few verses.

    5. I would also like to add: the video that someone touted that "the Holy Spirit works on the Sun" is a mockery to me; people just fall over and shake exactly the same as when kundalini falls. I have been twice on such revelations and have not experienced healing.

      If (there was a film with a Catholic) someone claims that he needed a miracle and he opened his wallet and suddenly out of nowhere there was 50 zlotys, I don't believe in such nonsense either. Just like my brother in Christ Arrivald told me about an evangelist who ran out of money, woke up and looked in his pocket 20 thousand or thereabouts. I don't believe in stories like that. The apostles worked by the sweat of their brow, in the book of Revelation when Christ speaks to the churches one gets a warning that they think they are rich because they have possessions, and the Lord warns them, (Rev 3:17) then he says to another who is in Smyrna (Rev 2:9) that poor and yet rich. I know of no such story of God sending an angel with money. Unless he blesses for service, but that is through men.

      And additionally, one with dreadlocks who supposedly heals, but you have to pay for the ticket because they rented the big hall. I don't believe in such things, then why did they rent a big hall?

      Matthew 10:8
      Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons; freely taken, freely given.

  2. I would like to take this opportunity, while on the subject, to ask how believers in the continuation of such powerful healings as in Acts understand the passage they often rely on for healing:

    , "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me shall also do the works that I do, and greater works than these shall he do: for I go to the Father." John 14:12

    Do you think it is possible to do greater healings than Jesus Christ, who healed ALWAYS, FROM A PLACE, FROM ANY SICKNESS?

    1. This has to be looked at in Greek and context:
      11 Believe me, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me. At least because of the works themselves (εργα erga) believe me.
      12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me, the works (εργα erga) which I do shall he do also, and greater (μειζονα meizona) than these shall he do, because I go away to my Father.

      ἔργον ergon - to work, to accomplish; a work or worker who does something. 2041 / εργον ergon work being an act,action, carrying out to the end an inner desire, intention, purpose.
      μειζονα meizona - wider, bigger (in terms of volume, range)

      John 4:34
      34 Jesus said to them, My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to do his work (εργον ergon).
      John 17:4
      4 I have glorified you on earth and completed the works (εργον ergon) that you gave me to do.
      John 19:30
      1 Cor. 9:1
      1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work (εργον ergon) in the Lord?
      Scripture and not miracles are needed to do all good works
      2 Tim. 3:16-17
      16 All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for education in righteousness;
      17 That the man of God may be perfect, for every good work (εργον ergon) fully prepared.
      The Lord Jesus saying "He who believes in me, the works that I do he will do, and greater works than these he will do, because I am going to my Father" says directly: your task is to form the church, to bring people to God from all corners of the earth with the help of the gospel contained in the Word of God. The Comforter, or Holy Spirit, will assist you in this work because he came to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

      1. " and greater than these shall he do; for I go to the Father", and yet the Lord could only have given such a statement: " and greater than these shall he do".

        so it is very important what is at the end which is : " for I go to the Father ".

        then the Lord was in their midst, but after His salvation, His ascension into heaven He was to be in them. While on earth, He performed miracles only in a limited region of the earth, but after glorification He was to work through His disciples throughout the earth.

        These greater works are, first, the outreach of the gospel and the power of the gospel to transform lives.

        A converted sinner is a greater miracle than a literal resurrected dead person - for such a dead person will die again, while a converted sinner will live forever.

        The one who heard the Word of God - truly heard, that is, believed, understood - is a greater miracle than the one who had a problem with literal hearing. For even if one was healed of deafness in the flesh, it availed him nothing if he was not freed from spiritual deafness.

        Blind to God's truths, blind to their sinful lives leading to perdition, and who see their condition and see God's ways, it is a greater miracle than one who was blind and yet saw.

        The effect of the action, the extent of the action of the apostles, and of the Church in history are greater works - the miracles of the apostles affected more people than the miracles of Christ, the extent of the action of the apostles was greater than the extent of the action of the Lord when He was on earth. Of course it was the Lord Jesus who acted through the apostles, the disciples, the church

        not the very nature of the miracles or work was to be greater, but the effect, the scope was to be greater and it was and is and the glory of the Lord Jesus. The gospel preached throughout the earth and by which millions have passed from death to life o greater works but still works of the Lord and men are but instruments of God. "WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING" - John 15:5

        "And when they came to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and by the apostles and elders, and they told how great things God had done through them."-Acts 15:4 Warsaw Bible

        " The next day Paul went with us to James, where all the elders were gathered.
        19 Having welcomed them, he told them in detail what God had accomplished among the Gentiles through his ministry.
        20 When they heard this, they praised the Lord and said, See, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them zealously keep the law. " - Acts 21:18-20 The Amplified Gdansk Bible

        I do not deny miracles, but it is not that everyone will do them and that they are a requirement. There are more important things than miracles - the miracle of salvation is greater. People being changed, sinners being converted is a greater miracle than Peter's healing shadow - Acts 5:15 or the blindfolds and handkerchiefs that touched Paul's skin that were given to the sick and they were healed and demons went out - Acts 19:12 - but the previous verse says :

        "Acts 19:11 UBG - God did and not Paul, Paul as well as the apostles and all the others are and were only instruments, but I have the impression that today they want to tell Christians that they are the ones doing something just because there is a verse somewhere. Just like in the new age - you do it by your power, faith in the power of your words, etc.

    2. Charismatics do everything they do in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, they ask the Lord and thank Him. Even if one of you were to say thank you for intercessory prayer, he would say thank you to our Lord Jesus Christ, give glory to Him.And what about the article is chaotic, some words are taken out of context. Peter, if you want to experience, I recommend "Czatachowe"; you can find it on Y.T - the assessment belongs to you. I no longer participate in such meetings, I prefer to worship God the Father and Our Lord Jesus Christ at home, although Jesus said where two or three in faith are praying, there I am.

      1. I believe in the supernatural and miraculousness of God, natural,but:
        It is not possible to turn something that served in the past as a validation of the Word of God (external miracles, foreign languages, permanent and visible healings) into a "permanent" practice today and build on it bizarre practices (gold dust, falling in the spirit, etc.) and treat the messages immediately as the Word of God or teach people to "tune in" to being a channel of revelation, which already resembles the new age (that is, opening to various spirits). On the other hand, every private revelation that does not come from such charismatic initiatives, but rather from God, must still be examined in the context of its conformity to the general, complete revelation of the ST and NT. The Lord God cannot contradict the Word inspired by Himself and written down.
        The creation of offices not provided for in the NT (e.g., new apostles, or "forced prophets or interpreters of dreams," popes) can also lead to some twisting of the Word (example -krk).

        1. I fully agree with you...

  3. Przemyslaw Mach

    I believe that there are some people who do greater miracles than our Lord, but these are people who do it to really help someone out of the mire of sin. Such people do not boast about it and do not do it for their own glory but for the glory of the Lord.

    But such gifts are given to those who belong to the Lord with all their hearts and devote themselves to him without ceasing

    But in truth it is not the miracles that are important or who has what gifts, it is the preaching of the gospel and abiding in the Lord every day. We have been created in the likeness of God so we should not be fascinated by such things because they are normal because apart from the material world there is also the spiritual world in which there are no impossible things

    and another thing is that miracles of healing or other things do not necessarily come from God but from demons in order to show that some organization is real

  4. Matthew's quote
    "I read a little more, but it's too long for me, and if Revelation is over, why are there two witnesses described in Jerusalem in the book of Revelation?

    As for me, this article is an attempt to push your point of view, too many claims too few verses."

    Dear Brother Matthew!
    I'm very sorry, but if someone doesn't focus on reading the article because it's too long, doesn't reflect and consider with their heart and reason what is described there, then they are de facto unreliable in challenging the arguments.
    Contentious and controversial issues must be approached with an open mind, and forming an opinion is an ongoing process....

    As for the two witnesses in Revelation: their appearance in the world for a predetermined period of time, with supernatural gifts, will be a sign of the times and evidence of the duration of the Great Tribulation. There must be something to make them credible and stand out from the crowd!
    If all Christians had miraculous gifts, how would you identify specially called prophets?

    Want more verses? Read the Bible! However, I don't know if you know, but it is quite long....
    🙂

    1. Oh dear and this one is sarcastic again. What's the matter with you 🙂 I don't know.

      1. Humility, humility, humility, humility.... main name.,it is not too difficult,,, speech is silver and silence is gold.Angelika you are right, but what is the point of this ending, no one will remember your wisdom but your unbridled temperament.God bless you dear.

      2. 🙂
        My sincerest apologies...
        But did I write wrong?

        1. I was reminded of a situation in my life so 1.5 years ago when I got fired for the first time in my life for what I said... (I'm a workaholic!).

          A conversation with my boss seemingly by accident 🙂 came down to the Bible. She said that she had read the Bible, but it was some incomprehensible old book, we don't know why, we don't know what about and in general it was a terrible massacre. I asked on which book and which chapter she stopped, because I simply do not understand her opinion....
          It turned out that
          stopped at: The Bible is the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments....

          The next day, I received an immediate notice of termination, supposedly due to the elimination of the position....

          The risk of telling the brutal truth to the eye is included by me...

          Greetings to you
          You're All Lovely
          🙂

  5. PS fanatical Muslims are also "charismatic" (in a slightly different sense), see their speeches, mega fiery, moving ah....

  6. When it comes to gifts, it's not just: tongues, miracles and healing according to the Bible, it's also: in the 12th chapter of Romans they are about serving, teaching, encouraging, gifting, leadership and mercy. The list from 1 Corinthians 12.4-11 includes: word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, prophecies, discerning of spirits, speaking in tongues, and interpretation of tongues. The list from 1 Corinthians 12.28 includes: healing, relief, leadership, various tongues.
    I guess the internal ones (wisdom, love, faith) are more important than the spectacular external ones?

  7. Want more verses? Read the Bible! However, I don't know if you know, but it is quite long....
    :).... me...I'm a smart girl, why should people know you for your sharp tongue, you may not be in control, but I wish you happiness, to be surrounded by people full of love.With God.

    1. "Woe is me, my mother, that thou hast borne me, a husband of strife and quarrelsomeness with all the world." Jer. 15:10

      "So I threatened them and cursed them and beat some of them,
      I gripped my hair and cursed God..." Neh. 13:25

      "Zeal for your house devours me..." Ps.69:9

      I have nothing else in my defense... 🙁

      1. Angelika, the most important thing in life is to be fair to God and people.

  8. sorry Angelika - I'm writing about you, I mean you're a smart girl....

  9. About languages - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJyp7USS9g - I've seen a couple of lectures by this guy - he's very biblical, actually ONLY biblical hehe,
    He found in a certain book on witchcraft the so-called tongues... these gibberish speeches and mutterings etc were found in pagan cults, oracles. He presents his conclusions.

    1. tra ta ta ta - etc. phrases that are presented by many as proof that they speak in tongues and are filled with the spirit are at least no proof at all - anyone can say such phrases - even an atheist or satanist. Such "tongues" are also found in Roman Catholicism. Let the proof of being born again and abiding in it, of being filled with the spirit, be the fruit of the spirit, the true fruit of the spirit in your daily life - at school, work, home, or anywhere else

      "And the works of the flesh are manifest, namely, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, (20) idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, wrath, scheming, strife, dissent, (21) murder, drunkenness, gluttony, and the like; of these I tell you, as I warned you before, that those who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, temperance. Against such there is no law. (24) And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified their flesh with the passions and lusts. " - Galatians 5:19-24 BW

      1. no no it is not elpis tara ta ta, but bara rara bara rara. 🙂

        And seriously, this is a completely unknown topic to me. The apostles actually spoke real foreign languages, and what kind of languages the charismatics speak I have no idea.

  10. 1)The Lord Jesus warns against false prophets and false signs and wonders, and this means that there are also real ones, against these he does not warn.
    So in the last times true miracles and prophecies will be, only they must be judged.
    2) Those who believe (Mark 16.17) - this is undoubtedly about us - are to be accompanied by signs such as tongues, healings...
    They also prayed in tongues in the house of Cornelius (Acts 10), which is not mentioned by the author because it does not fit in with his thesis.
    3)Tongues,prophecy will pass away (1 Corinthians 13),when perfection comes.
    If it has passed, then JESUS CHRIST TODAY AND FOREVER WILL NOT. !!!! THE SAME.
    4) I believe on the basis of the Word what I have written above and I practice it.
    Paul wrote to strive earnestly for spiritual gifts.
    After all, these gifts are helpful to be able to love better.
    I pray in tongues and constantly thank God for this gift, because it is wonderful when my spirit prays without my mind, what a rest in prayer.
    We cast out some demons, there were words of knowledge, many people experienced the filling of Holy Spirit with the sign of tongues, a few demonic releases, also spontaneous during the worship through singing, true prophecies, a few healings: epilepsy, long leg, aids, a tumor on the head, but there were also prayers with no results, even a funeral, a miraculous multiplication of food.We served a lot, nobody was looking at the clock, a lot of Word, a lot of sincerity, e.g. my brother didn't hesitate to tell us to pray for him, because he had a problem with onanism and the Lord set him free after we prayed.
    But you have to feel real love in people to be able to open up like that in a home group.
    I will tell you a secret - it was a time of great, beautiful first love for the Lord and for each other in the Pentecostal community, although I always said that I was Christ's.
    Then came lukewarmness (I won't go into details) and things began to fade away, because the Lord affirms spirituality and not carnality, a carnal man cannot please God.
    Today you have to go back to the first
    love and the Lord will bring it all about again, confirm it with his presence and his works, which have not passed away.
    There are different Pentecostal communities, healthy and sick ones, let's not put them into one bag.
    There is also a movement of these strange behaviors that I am not convinced of.
    If someone asks, I say that I have no conviction, but go and see, having prayed beforehand if you want, I do not go, because I was there, I saw and I am not attracted to it.
    There are also people from this movement who have a beautiful testimony of life better than the so-called decent ones, so let the Lord judge them.

    1. Although I don't have as much experience as you, I subscribe to what you write Kesja.

    2. what the languages are - can you write what the language looks like - if you can write some words, because I assume it's about words and not things like " pa ra sa sa tra ta ta " or something like that.

      As for tongues - true tongues, not everyone was meant to have them - but different are the gifts as different are the members of the body: "And different are the ways of working, but the same God who works all things in all. (7) And in each the Spirit is manifested differently for the common good. (8) For one receives by the Spirit the speech of wisdom, another by the same Spirit the speech of knowledge, (9) another faith by the same Spirit, another the gift of healing by the same Spirit. (10) Still another the gift of working miracles, another the gift of prophecy, another the gift of discerning spirits, another various kinds of tongues, and finally another the gift of interpretation of tongues. (11) But all these are produced by one and the same Spirit, distributing to each one individually as he wills. (12) For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of the body, though they are many, form one body, so also Christ" - 1 Corinthians 12:6-12 BW

      "For as in one body we have many members, and not all the members do the same work, (5) so we are all one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another. (6) And we have different gifts according to the grace given to us" - Romans 12:4-6a BW

      Besides, gifts by themselves without love mean nothing, they will help nothing, so as Paul said, we should strive for love, and at the same time strive for greater spiritual gifts - 1 Corinthians 14:1

      "(1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am a sounding copper or a sounding cymbal. (2) And though I had the gift of prophecy, and knew all mysteries, and possessed all knowledge, and though I had full faith, so that I could move mountains, and had not love, I would be nothing. (3) And though I give away all my possessions, and though I hand over my body to be burned, and have not love, it profiteth me nothing."- 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 BW

      1. "For he who speaks in tongues speaks not for men, but for God; for no one understands him, but he in the power of the Spirit utters secret things."
        - 1 Corinthians 14:2

        "He who speaks in tongues only edifies himself (...)"
        - 1 Corinthians 14:4

        This is what these languages look like. A personal language for prayer between you and God that neither you nor others understand without interpretation.

        Usually the people I have met who speak in tongues have more love than the people who attack people with this gift. This is not a rule, but these are my observations.

        It is very strange to assume that we are not familiar with the Scriptures and passages cited. I know them quite well and have heard various deeper analyses of them. I have written many times how languages look like, if someone wants to know more, write to me and I will explain what it is about, I will send a book on this subject, I can even show it on Skype.

        But if someone wants to throw stones and prove that the gift I use every day does not exist anymore, have a nice day and greetings. Those who have experience with the Holy Spirit know what they prayed for, what they received and what the fruits of it are.

        My email: [email protected]

        1. The truth is, I even had to write about this once, that we are not equal as Christians. I don't have time for a longer post, but both regular Bible students will be saved as well as having DS as a friend. We will not be equal in the kingdom of God. Everyone will receive their reward according to merit and devotion to God.

          Not everyone needs to heal or evangelize to be saved, but God will judge us and that is the truth.

          Some are waiting with a Bible in their hands to die and others are evangelizing, healing, helping others. All will be saved.

          1. I agree, I am mainly concerned with wasting the time of people who do not operate with the gifts of the Holy Spirit to convince others that the healings we see are gone, the gift of tongues we use is gone, etc.

            I'm not here to convince, but these things are very misunderstood in current Christianity. I see the same arguments over and over again that have been debunked long ago.

            A lot of people are convinced that if someone speaks in tongues or heals, he is better. Well no, what we have is all the grace of God, undeserved. These things help to preach the gospel and your relationship with God. Someone doesn't want them, that's their business, but some of us want more of God and what He offers and what helps in the ministry He has called us to.

          2. Paul writes, "strive," which is Greek for "jealously compete, for spiritual gifts," which is God telling us is good, healthy jealousy.
            The Lord Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit, that we would take His power and (then) be His witnesses.
            It is difficult to testify that Jesus is in us in his bodily power.
            Even the Lord commanded not to depart from Jerusalem but to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit.Such was the importance of this.
            And what do we see, the cowardly Peter is courageous, Stephen blesses the torturers, in prison the handcuffed Christians worship God, the frightened disciples cry out for the filling of the Holy Spirit and what do we read and after that they preach the Word of God with boldness (Acts 4.31).
            Let's look further, they sold their possessions, no one called them their own, they met daily around the table, the people held them in high esteem, the gifts at home meetings, the newcomer through the prophecies heard the secret of his heart and had confirmation that God was present there and repented.
            They have turned the world around, and today why do young people go into the spirituality of Buddhism, because carnal Christianity, full of sin, because there is no power, full of carnality even repels.
            It was not just a moral life, as even atheists do, it was supernatural, confirmed by God with signs, wonders, gifts, courage and the power to love supernaturally.
            And this is the biblical standard, not the standard of some author of some article, but the biblical standard, the foundation.
            If it doesn't work, it's not God's fault, God says strive, because it's good for your development, for helping others.
            When we released the man, his face became like a wild animal and without faith, confidence that there is a power greater than me, I would have run away from there.
            What do we read about Samaria?-when the apostles heard in Jerusalem
            that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John for what? -to make the disciples receive the Holy Spirit, because they were what? - quote, "ONLY immersed=baptized in the NAME OF THE LORD JESUS."
            They put their hands together, and they what? -received the Holy Spirit.
            How did they recognize it? As with Cornelius (Acts 10.46), for they heard them speaking in tongues ( -they would have walked so far from Jerusalem to Ephesus, if it were not very important? Acts 19.6).
            There, no one was guessing, there was an obvious sign.
            Just because things have been distorted over the centuries doesn't mean we shouldn't hold on to them, return to the biblical pattern.
            Such a life as we have is mainly in Acts, that is LIFE and not near-death survival.
            (Acts 3.16) and Acts 21.8 says that the cowards will be in the lake of fire.
            It was written for something.
            Let us strive for life and not settle for vegetation.

          3. I think that Mr. Detective is right 🙂 I will not write anything about the form in which such charismatic miracles should take place and how such gifts should be revealed in everyone, because there are people here who have much more knowledge in this matter than I do,
            I would just like to add that the main problem is probably still too little discernment of what comes from the Holy Spirit and what comes from the evil one and his hordes of demons. It's not even about bad or good intentions of the opponents of charismatic gifts or their supporters, it's about too little faith, trust or too much faith, trust in what we see, forgetting that we should first examine from what source it actually comes. Some opponents of charisms go to extremes, but some supporters do as well. No wonder, since Jesus Himself warned against false prophets and miracles. We all know that Satan loves to "counterfeit" the Holy Spirit and deceive God's children.
            Such divided opinions on this subject, I think, may be due to the fact that the fullness of the work of the Holy Spirit will only begin to be seen and recognized by all when the Truth is separated from the lie. Then also the faith of the children of God will increase to such an extent that it will no longer be shaken by anything.
            The outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was a foreshadowing of what is to come in the end times.

            "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith the Lord, That I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall have visions, And your old men shall dream dreams; Even upon my servants and my handmaidens I will pour out my Spirit in those days And they shall prophesy." Acts 2:17-18

            This does not mean, of course, that the Holy Spirit no longer works. After all, the Lord Jesus left Him to us after He ascended to God the Father.
            It works in different ways, of course - if it wasn't so, we wouldn't meet at the Detective's, etc... 🙂 There is a lot of evidence for the work of God's Spirit, but isn't it so that because of the still existing too big division between the followers of Christ there is no fullness of His work? Aren't we the very perpetrators of this? The apostles in Christ's day also did not immediately receive the gift of healing.
            Maybe we should argue less and trust God more and put our full trust in Him. I think that in the face of what is coming we should. Now maybe someone will protest and say, "Wait a minute, I trust the Lord and I fully believe and I can recognize which gifts come from God and which do not, but are we sure? Do we really trust our lives fully to God the Father?
            I don't know about you guys but I still have a problem with this unfortunately even though I read God's word 🙁
            Also, I have never witnessed a live healing, for example, but I believe it is possible since the Holy Spirit is working among us, but we still have to wait a bit for the fullness 🙂 .
            Greetings 🙂 I'd like to thank you.

            Ps. Forgive me for writing too chaotic, but as usual I write from the so called "off-hand".

    3. when perfection comes:
      perfection (τέλειος teleios)
      τέλειοι teleioi (a derivative of τέλος telos)-mature, developed, fulfilling the necessary process of spiritual development, complete
      τέλος telos - correct, reaching the goal, achieving all results, final
      Perfection came when the church reached maturity in love and the Word of God became complete
      When the apostle Paul wrote 1 Corinthians (55 a.d.), the Scriptures were not yet complete; at that time the only letters written were the Epistle of James (40s of the first century), and 1 and 2 letters to the Thessalonians (50-51 a.d.), and perhaps the letter to the Galatians (also written in 55 a.d.). There were no other parts of the New Testament; full revelation of the Word was not available.
      Hence the comparison of the church to a small child, still immature, without proper knowledge and therefore without the ability to reason properly. An adult has more knowledge than a child (verse 11), reasoning differently, and through full knowledge can walk in maturity (perfection).
      Romans 13 states plainly that to walk in love is to wake up from a dream (in a dream everything is unclear, without full meaning), to walk clearly and soberly in truth and knowledge where everything is clear and bright (not like at first when one is young in faith and knowledge).
      Rom. 13:10-11
      10 Love does no evil to your neighbor. So the fulfillment of the law is love.
      11 And do this, knowing the time, that it is now time for us to awake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we believed
      plus the whole context....if it were possible to work miracles greater than Christ himself, why did the sincere reformers simply bend to their work and not convince the NCC in all its power to seriously reform?....

      1. Keep in mind that those who curse others because of "lack of power" are generally people (often very sincere) from the faith movement, the late rain movement, dominionism - kingdom building here and meddling in politics (movements that have some characteristics of sects). And the apostolic epistles so often exhort - HEALTHY SCIENCE - science, words, truth, etc not emotional passion exalted (colloquially burning), but reason above all, that brilliant brain. Someone will say - you have seen little, attended little here or there... - but what is truth that depends on place in space? Where was the "power" of reformers and people burned at the stake or devoured by lions? In them, for the Truth.
        Now is a time when we need to be very discerning - I recommend Peters' lecture "we need to be discerning".
        I'm not generalizing all "charismatic" movements to one like Catholics, but it's all about the system and the basics - just the science.
        A couple of testimonials from friends:

        "I was in the charismatic movement for many years, they were just brainwashing me. Many people ended badly, even by suicide, when they were not healed, they left God thinking that if they did not have faith to be healed they also did not have faith to be saved... I have a huge burden on me when I see the victims of charismatics. The evil that was born in the early 20th century is now wreaking havoc!"

        "When I got away from the babble, and the crazy visions called prophecies, I focused on the Word. After a while came the remembrance of sins."


        This is man-centered Christianity, not God-centered Christianity. This is rather normal in charismatic circles, with the exception of David Wilkerson. People are told what they are worth, etc., and what they should achieve as a result.

        1. I would like to make it clear and remind: neither our faith (conviction), nor zeal, sincerity, fervency, emotions-feelings, experiences, imaginations, good will etc.- are by themselves a measure of the truth as such, much less of the Truth of the Faith once delivered, "and that they should contend for the faith once for all delivered to themselves (cf. Jd 3) - where? in the Biblios (66 books) full revelation, beginning and end.

      2. Adi,quoting you : "Perfection came when the church reached maturity in love and the Word of God became complete"
        I envy you, because I strive for perfection, and you have already achieved it, you write in the past tense.
        Look at what Paul writes about,we have a partial NOW of knowing and prophesying,but then face to face I will know as I am known,

        1. I wasn't referring to myself, this is about the biblical text, I am simply suggesting that you check the context and Greek in a good dictionary.

  11. The end of this article is a recipe for how to make the miracle of healing not happen, just don't believe. This is a "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread" approach Here God is being put to the test, man does not heal on his own.

    1. If a miracle is done by God then how can you "not make it happen"? Is it some kind of "due" from the Lord? Is it grace - the favor of the King of Kings?

  12. I'm very glad that a storm was created with this text, although I was hoping for a bigger one 🙂 I'm very happy.

    The following questions arise:

    1. has anyone seen immediate healing of serious illnesses in this day and age?

    Are these languages the languages of existing nations? If not, what are they and what is their biblical source?

    I don't hold either side. I just explore. In the name of Jesus and because of Him, I have managed several times small ailments to fall asleep instantly.

    On the other hand, I am 100% convinced that even very serious diseases are curable through prayers.

    I also know that we won't come up with anything from writing. I am curious how many opponents of healing have even once tried to heal in the name of Jesus? That takes a lot of faith. If you haven't tried, you have no right to negate it. It's like someone having a negative opinion about driving without ever having driven a vehicle.
    Of course, to fall in the spirit, for example, you don't have to try it, but it has no biblical basis and healing does.

    1. 1.As I have written in the past, I have experienced healing, I have actually talked to people who have experienced healing, I follow the subject, observe what is going on and read/hear about it. As for whether anyone has seen a NATURAL healing of a serious illness in this day and age, I have not seen or heard of such from reliable sources. Of course, you can hear about such things, that somewhere in some unknown place [often supposedly in Africa] limbs grew back and so on [which, of course, has not been recorded in any reliable way, because it is considered as putting God to the test. Interestingly, as far as I know, the healings done by Jesus and the Apostles sometimes happened in front of many people, are recorded by the most popular Book, and additionally, a lot is written about it, films are made, and so on, and no one claims that this is/was putting God to the test]. You can also hear something like, "a friend heard about such a miracle", or that somewhere far away there is an unknown person who heals everything and so on, who does not want publicity. If I remember correctly, Jesus told people not to say that they were healed, and yet everyone boasted about it, and about Jesus as well as about Apostles it was very loud, even in the era when there was no Internet.

      I don't speak in real languages, I don't know anyone who does[not mean "ba ba ra ba"], I haven't seen anywhere[even on the internet] real languages[which are real intelligible speech] and I haven't heard from reliable sources that such a thing has happened. As far as I know, if anything, it is very rare for someone to claim in a testimony that after being baptized they said a few words in an unknown language that later supposedly turned out to be true. If this is to be believed, if it was not just an illusion caused by autosuggestion, expectation, it is still, in my opinion, poor evidence, because in the testimonies there was nothing mentioned about using this language in practice, about getting along with someone in an unknown language. The testimonies did not mention anything about using the language in practice or getting along with someone in an unfamiliar language, but only about supposedly speaking a few words in a supernatural way, and that is all.
      As Matesz wrote:

      , "I attend a Pentecostal church in Tarnowskie Góry, I don't have the gift of tongues, but in my church some people speak in tongues, one spoke Latin for a while or similar."

      If I am not mistaken, this statement implies that there is no certainty as to what the language was, and whether it was any real comprehensible language at all, and was not used in practice. That is, the uncertainty of the 'gift', and so-called art for art's sake.

      1. Torben claims that his English is a gift of language.

        As for recording miracles of healing, it's one thing to record it as a testimonial and another to put it out there like "come to our hospital and show how you heal on cue."

        Torben records a lot of miracles, the only problem is that it's impossible to verify it, you don't know who these people are and where to look for them. For some time I was looking on the internet for a man who looked like a bum and whose arm Torben healed when he was in Poland. I only found some mention that Torben had a lecture in this village, nothing about the cure, and supposedly it caused such a sensation in this town.

        Is anyone able to reach this man?

        The other thing is that you should believe the Scriptures more than your eyes, because the eyes can lie. But as far as Scripture is concerned, opinions are divided:)

        Sometimes I wonder if it wasn't better to just ignore the internet and study the Bible on your own, everything is getting more and more confusing, there are opposing interpretations for everything.

        1. "Sometimes I wonder if it wasn't better to ditch the internet and study the Bible on your own, everything gets more and more confusing, there are opposing interpretations for everything."

          I think that it is not necessary, it is enough to reverse the proportions, e.g. from the time we devote to the Internet to spend on practicing, evangelizing, trying to heal. The Internet cannot be the goal, it has to be a tool. It is from the net that you will watch Torben

      2. Dear Guzzi, 1 Corinthians 14.2 Paul says that no one understands the speaker, and he in the power of the Spirit speaks mysteries.
        There can also be languages that can be understood, it depends on the will and the plan of the Holy Spirit.

        1. Yes, I am familiar with this passage. A little further on, in verse 13 Paul wrote:

          , "Therefore let him who speaks in tongues pray for the gift of expounding them."

          Can you lecture, or do you know someone who lectures, translates languages? Still further, in verses 22 and 23 he wrote thus:

          Speaking in tongues is a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, and prophecy not for unbelievers but for believers. If therefore the whole church is gathered together in one place, and all speak in unintelligible tongues, and ordinary believers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are mad?"

          Here is this issue in my opinion interestingly described:
          http://www.gotquestions.org/Polski/mowienia-jezykami.html

          Look, I'm just wondering right now. How is it possible for someone to experience miracles such as healings and speaking in tongues through the Holy Spirit and not realize that there is something wrong with the Roman Catholic Church? Witek Wilk - Catholic Charismatic on many videos talks about the miracle of healing, speaking in tongues, and even unfortunately speaks positively about the Catholic Eucharistic 'miracle'. It seems strange to me... to heal, to speak in tongues, and not to notice the hypocrisy of the CC? And this is supposed to be the true work of the Holy Spirit who leads to the Truth? I found a video where he talks about communicating miraculously in an unknown language:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-ihtyEse4M

          5:30 John Paul 2: Long life for the charismatics
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-QDOcDGDWA&list=PLA58828F0937B7901
          5:56 "That all people may experience the priceless dignity that is theirs in Christ. I ask you, and all participants in the charismatic renewal to continue to shout out loud to the world with me. Open the door to renewal."
          6:30 - , "Thanks to the charismatic movement, many Christians, women, children, young, old, have discovered Pentecost/Pentecost[not sure which word fits best here] as a living and present reality of daily life."
          6:55 , "I want Pentecostal spirituality to be widespread in the church."
          8:00 , "I would like to shout out to all of you today,..., open yourselves to the gifts of the Spirit"

          Raniero Cantalamessa - Capuchin, Roman Catholic Charismatic preaching that the charismatic gifts are as valid today as on the day of the outpouring of the Spirit.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNhpLOifASk
          In 6:55 he says that he experienced the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Could someone baptized with the Holy Spirit, giving his life to God, at the same time not know the whole truth, and not see that something is wrong with Roman Catholicism? From about the 7th minute on he talks about the fruit of the Holy Spirit, he says that the Bible has become for him a living word through which God speaks to him. Does this man leave out the Old Testament? In 7:38 he says that after his baptism he felt like he was drawn to the church. Then from 8:16 he says that one day the Lord spoke to him through a picture. He later mentions that John Paul 2 appointed him preacher of the papal household. 9:48 , "It was an amazing grace, it allowed me to proclaim in the heart of the church the gift of the new fiftieth [day of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit] which is manifested in the church. I have even preached on the baptism in the Holy Spirit in the Roman Curia."

          1. Just to interject that I know a person who has interpreted languages. I myself am slowly striving for this gift. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, you gave the example of Witek Wilk. I know a person who started in the Catholic Church in a charismatic community and eventually left the church. How do you know if God will not lead Witek out of the Catholic church at the right time? How do you know how He might use him? Let's leave that to God.

            "Not everyone who says to me: Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but only he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. In that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles? And then I will say to them, I never knew you. Go away from me you who do lawlessness."
            - Matthew 7:21-23

            He is not writing here that the signs were false and from demons. It is simply that those who do them are not necessarily saved and doing the will of the Father in heaven.

          2. Arraivald

            The Savior did not confirm that they were done by His power. It is logical that if someone lives in sins like those people then Christ will not confirm by signs and wonders their words, actions. If He did, He would confirm them in their errors.

            So these people only seemed to be doing something in the name of Christ. But their "miracles" are not as good as those described in the Gospels and in Acts. So they can, for example, "take away" someone's pain, but such "miracles" are also in Catholicism and the occult.

          3. Elpis

            Also, there is no denial here. The church in Corinth acted signs, and some of their sins were worse than the pagans, they were immature.

      3. A friend of mine invited for healing her and her friends - many years ago - a guru of the "NIEBO" sect to her home.
        Since then, objects have started falling by themselves in her apartment, etc.
        We were asked to help.We chased this evil.I am not going into details.
        She needed the power of the Holy Spirit in case that granddaddy wanted to come back.
        I prayed for her to be filled with D.Sw.in Polish and then in tongues.
        She interrupted me by asking why I was speaking to her in Italian, and it turned out that I was speaking a dialect of Italian that she knew.
        I said to her what I had just said in Polish, which convinced her that God was truly present and she was set free from the evil one, healed of the pain in her leg for which she had a pension and filled with the Holy Spirit.
        So it varies.
        I have a lecture, sometimes I don't, sometimes someone understands, often I speak for God and only God understands, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14.2, often I sing, worship him in tongues, D.Sw. himself gives the language and melody, differently.
        Desire, and the Lord will give the gift of the Holy Ghost and tongues as a sign and as a gift.
        You just have to thirst like a thirsty person thirsts for water in the desert.
        He who thirsts let him come to me and drink and from within him will flow rivers of living water,and this he said about D.SW.
        I experienced this alone at home although I asked at a renewal retreat at D.Sw.
        Yes, I received the true Holy Spirit, yes, while still being in Catholicism and He led me to freedom and to devour the Bible for hours, I had such a hunger that I read and pondered for 6 hours in total, He freed me from addiction to TV, hence there was plenty of time for the WORD OF GOD and gave me the courage to leave Catholicism, which only He could do, because I was a devout follower of St. Mary's.
        I cried for a few hours as I parted from my beloved "mother," a constant participant in the May devotions.
        I needed the power of D.Sw to make it happen, my fiftieth .

  13. "Also, I have never witnessed a live healing, for example, but I believe it is possible since the Holy Spirit is working among us, but we still have to wait a bit for the fullness 🙂 "

    to the fullness and especially to the ability to recognize the gifts of the Spirit of God without question. If there are still so many different opinions and even arguments among the followers of Christ, what does it mean? Who among us today in 100% can say without a doubt that they can fully recognize whether or not the Holy Spirit is at work in a given person?

  14. My Dears,
    First of all, I think that everyone pays too much attention to gifts. After all, we are God's children, we should do good, help others, support them and most importantly, LOVE God and His Son Jesus Christ. It is God who should give us discernment in the truth. Scripture is useful, but the real teacher should be Jesus Christ, and in prayer we should ask for understanding of it all.

    In my peasant mind, I see it all like this:
    1) Human miracles are possible, but they are few and far between, and certainly not those who make money by doing good.
    2)I see the gift of speaking in tongues this way: it is possible, but I see it as being able to speak in the languages of this world without learning them. Such a gift would be to preach the word of God to all nations and glorify God.
    3) Speaking in an unintelligible language- this is certainly demonic and I have my reasons for saying so.

    PS: A year ago my brother was at: Jesus at the Stadium, a meeting with Bashoorba - somehow. When he came back from that meeting and walked into the house, I was overwhelmed with fear and dread. A strange trembling of the body. I immediately started praying that it would stop, because it was definitely not from God. At night I had a sleep paralysis - in which some figure was suffocating me. A strange coincidence, isn't it?

  15. I'm short on time so keep it short:
    "But to them that believe, these signs shall accompany them: In my name they will cast out evil spirits, they will speak with new tongues: (...) They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall be healed."
    (Mark 16:17-18)
    This weekend I'm going to a conference on demonic deliverance, demonic pressure not only for non-believers but also for Christians.

    1. Mario, see "Star Wars in the Church" on straight street, the Bible is a contextual message (the whole teaching matters) and taking passages or events out of context is a typical attempt to bolster one's teachings and practices in various ministries - even "courses" in deliverance, healing, and other marvels.

    2. Where are the snakes and poisons ?

      "new languages" - new languages are not "tra ta tra ta ta" etc. but e.g. Polish, French, Chinese and all other known languages.

      It is also worth adding the last verse of this chapter : " And they went and preached everywhere, and the Lord helped them and confirmed their word by the signs that accompanied it "

      "And they abode there a long time, speaking boldly in confidence toward the Lord, who confirmed the word of his grace by signs and wonders which he wrought by their hands."-Acts 14:3 Warsaw Bible

      The Lord Jesus was confirming the Words preached by the apostles - but as we know the apostles preached the full Gospel, the true Gospel.

      The Lord Jesus will not affirm false teaching or a false gospel.
      I have seen various videos of people who claim to heal, they claim to do what is described in Acts or the Gospels. The problem is that they do not preach the Gospel, or some substitute for the Gospel and their so-called healings do not match the miracles, healings that we read about in the Gospels or Acts of the Apostles. And no wonder Lord Jesus will not confirm some substitute of the Gospel and erroneous teachings, erroneous actions

      Jesus performed great miracles and people followed the miracles and in the end they mostly left the Savior - this should give food for thought to people who focus on miracles - in fact, some kind of pdeudo-mazes because they do not live up to the miracles of the Savior and e.g. the apostles. These people do not preach the full Gospel, turning away from sin, not loving the world, striving to bear the fruit of the Spirit, striving for sanctification.

      1. "The Lord Jesus will not affirm false teaching or a false gospel" - this text brother convinces me a hundred times more than this article, thanks.

        1. In this whole "faith movement" - although it has little to do with faith - everything is upside down. The Gospel is shallowed or non-existent, and the so-called miracles are in the spotlight, in the center. Only that even these "miracles" are a mockery compared to the miracles in Acts and the Gospels - and these people are just citing the Gospels and Acts and claiming to do what they do in Acts and the Gospels.

          " you have experienced those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found that they are liars. " - Revelation John 2:2b Warsaw Bible

          , "You have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and have found that they are liars. " - The Modernised Gdansk Bible

          ,

      2. Of course we are not to focus on miracles, but as Jesus says in Mark 16.17, they will accompany believers, those who believe.

  16. " In the view of believers, miracles are the fruit of the causal power of the Almighty - an entity to which one can turn when all other means fail. They are also proof of His existence. Representatives of one of the religious organizations operating in Australia, however, believe that the skills that allow you to do extraordinary things, evading attempts at rational explanation, can be learned. In the land of kangaroos, a school has been set up to offer courses that will enable its graduates to do supernatural things: curing a deadly disease, restoring fertility to a woman who cannot have children, or even raising the dead should not be a problem for them.

    The unusual school belongs to a branch of Hillsong Church (an Australian Protestant church). The grouping, called Westlife Church, operates on the outskirts of Brisbane and has already enrolled 70 students. As part of the training, DVDs containing recordings of lectures by controversial religious leader Bill Johnson will be used (according to believers from the United States, supernatural things happen in his presence).

    The originators of creating this type of training claim that several miracles have already been reported within Westlife Church. Now the idea is to pass on the secrets of performing miracles to as many more people as possible, The Queensland Times reported.

    "Schools that teach supernatural things are designed to provide students with the knowledge of performing miracles through gospel knowledge and practical skills," can be read in a message appearing on the official website of the Church. "It is an environment where people can take the risk of operating miracles without fear of rejection or failure."

    In the view of believers, miracles are the fruit of the power of the Almighty - an entity to which one can turn when all other means fail. They are also proof of His existence. Representatives of one of the religious organizations operating in Australia, however, believe that the skills that allow you to do extraordinary things, evading attempts at rational explanation, can be learned. In the land of kangaroos, a school has been set up to offer courses that will enable its graduates to do supernatural things: curing a deadly disease, restoring fertility to a woman who cannot have children, or even raising the dead should not be a problem for them.

    The unusual school belongs to a branch of Hillsong Church (an Australian Protestant church). The grouping, called Westlife Church, operates on the outskirts of Brisbane and has already enrolled 70 students. As part of the training, DVDs containing recordings of lectures by controversial religious leader Bill Johnson will be used (according to believers from the United States, supernatural things happen in his presence).

    ADVERTISEMENT Read more

    The originators of creating this type of training claim that several miracles have already been reported within Westlife Church. Now the idea is to pass on the secrets of performing miracles to as many more people as possible, The Queensland Times reported.

    "Schools that teach supernatural things are designed to provide students with the knowledge of performing miracles through gospel knowledge and practical skills," can be read in a message appearing on the official website of the Church. "It is an environment where people can take the risk of operating miracles without fear of rejection or failure."

    also in the USA there are various schools of "miracles", schools of "prophets" - among others full of errors school of Bill Johnson : "Bethel Supernatural School of Ministry "

    1. "Schools teaching supernatural things are designed to provide students with the knowledge of how to perform miracles through evangelical knowledge and practical skills," reads a statement on the Church's official website. "Schools teaching supernatural things are designed to provide students with the knowledge of performing miracles through evangelical knowledge and practical skills," reads a communiqué on the Church's official website. "It is an environment where people can take the risk of working miracles without fear of rejection or failure."

      When I read something like this I immediately think to myself where is the place in such cases for a personal relationship with God? Isn't this the most important thing? Shouldn't one start with this and only then start thinking about the gifts of working miracles? Can it be learned simply if it is a gift from God? A GIFT FROM GOD. What does it mean "It is an environment in which people can take the risk of working miracles without fear of rejection or failure"?
      What risks? Could something like this have anything to do with the WB?

      1. This has nothing to do with Christ, if there are any supernatural phenomena they are from demons. There is no God in it so you have to "learn". The devilish new age dressed up in Christian clothes. We should pray for these people to see the truth.

  17. Today I really don't have time to read all of your posts in detail but when I get back from the conference I will read all of the statements in detail regarding this article and the article itself. I recently listened to a series of lectures on liberation from demonic influences and really learned a lot. I'm not going to give any quotes from the Bible, but I think that Christians should strive for spiritual gifts and use them. Of course circumstances and living conditions have changed, but God has not and neither has the Bible, so everything is valid and every Christian can heal, cast out demons and speak in tongues. I recommend you to listen to the following lecture. It is a little bit related to the topic...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovf7NfxDjRw&feature

    1. Maria, can you either blog or email me a summary of this conference? or write about interesting insights?

      1. I came back, it was the second conference of liberation from unclean spirits in Krotoszyn in the Pentecostal Church. Before I went to the conference I listened to a series of teachings about freeing from unclean spirits on the church's website. These teachings and the conference itself made me realize that we often forget how powerful God is. At the conference, of course, there were mostly Christians who are in need of help and deliverance. The teaching at the conference was to show us how to use the instrument of God and to actively resist. There were many people in attendance who were also dealing with the occult. There was a lot going on during the feast and during the worship and during the release. The teachings will be available on the website of the church. They were prepared to show us how to handle ourselves when we find ourselves in the valley and what attitude to take in the place of helplessness? Why oppression happens when we open the gates to attacks etc. Christians will not avoid obstacles and attacks in life until the end of their days here on earth. We are to know how to live and cope. An attitude of wailing will not bring us victory, but our actions will: 2Mz. There was a lot of talk about forgiving ourselves and others, about generational curses and their effect on our lives. There was talk about humility, about repentance, about POSSESSION AND SUBMISSION OF LIFE TO GOD, about prayer. How much time do we spend with God? There was a lot of talk about fear, anxiety, rejection, condemnation, about the identity we have in God. There was a lot of talk about what the evil one uses against us, his tricks, etc. so that we live in powerlessness, condemnation, rejection, fear and anxiety and not a victorious life. In short.

        1. Generally nothing new for me, but thanks, maybe those lectures on the site I'll review 😉

  18. I thought this article would clear up any doubts I had on this subject, but alas, it did not. And what does this scripture mean - Mr 16:17-19
    But to them that believe, these signs shall accompany them: in my name shall they cast out devils, and in new tongues shall they speak;
    18. They shall take snakes in their hands, and if they drink anything poisoned, it shall not hurt them. They shall lay their hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
    19After speaking with them, the Lord Jesus was taken up into heaven and seated at the right hand of God.
    Secondly, the text "Come with me to the hospital and lay hands on people and heal them" does not mean that someone has the gift of healing. Secondly, the text "-come with me to the hospital and lay your hands on the sick and heal" does not mean that someone has the gift of healing, but that he will come to anyone and heal them, because it is God Himself who decides who He will send me to heal.
    The worst thing is that all rejection of charisms comes after watching such macabre videos with Hagin and other deceivers and on this basis it is immediately concluded that charisms have no right to exist "because look what they do".
    The article completely fails to convince me.

    1. I too sometimes don't know what to think, but let's be clear - since no one has seen and verified "the working of miracles such and such as in the NT by hands" (I'm not talking about individual cases where the Lord God answers prayer), and we know that the visible signs are or are not valid (there is no logical third possibility) and God's gifts are not just reduced to these miracles, we have the full canon, and we have the testimony of the church:
      " 4th century John Chrysostom:
      "The whole place (1 Cor. 12 and the gifts presented there) is very obscure, but the reason
      of ambiguity is our ignorance of the gifts of which the letter speaks because of their
      atrophy."

      "5th century Augustine:
      "in earlier times the Holy Spirit descended upon those who believed and these spoke with strangers
      with tongues as the Spirit submitted to them. This thing was a sign, but it has passed away."

      "18th Century Jonathan Edwards:
      "Extraordinary gifts were given for the purpose of establishing the church; they served to establish it on
      world, but because the canon of Scripture has been completed and the Christian church has fully
      established and established, these extraordinary gifts have ceased"

      "19th - 20th Century. Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield:
      "These gifts were needed to authenticate the apostles. They were part of the authentication
      apostles as authoritative representatives of God and their work to establish
      24
      church. So the function of these gifts was clearly limited to the time of the apostolic church and
      these gifts must have gone with them. One cannot expect miraculous gifts to be a sign of
      confirming divine revelation have had their place in the church today as well, and this is because
      revelation has been completed."

      Late 2nd century. - Montanism
      "And he (Montanius) came out of himself, and became suddenly as if furious, as if in ecstasy. He began
      ranting and babbling(!), saying strange things, prophesying in a manner contrary to what he was
      accepted in the church from the very beginning."
      The prophets of Montanism did not speak as messengers of God but were described as "possessed by God,
      What they couldn't resist."
      They were considered false prophets because they behaved irrationally and had no
      control of the senses(!)

      - Well, what conclusions do you draw? To me it clearly leads towards a moderate really "charismatic" one.

  19. How much more will you walk around this cake instead of tasting it!

    How much longer will you run around with a sage glass and eye?
    Everything with a "t"-theory and theology, where is LIFE, GOD'S LIFE with a capital "Z"?

    Have you come to terms with your sinful life, have you believed in the saving power of the Lord Jesus' sacrifice, have you been immersed in water for the washing away of sins in the name of the Lord Jesus, then have you asked for the gift of the Holy Spirit with the sign of tongues to receive His power to testify about Jesus, then have you boldly witnessed to your Lord, is God most important to you and do you love and fellowship with His children, do you love the Word of God, do you have an ongoing relationship with the Lord?
    If so, you will be accompanied by signs and gifts and righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
    You will be a practitioner at last and you will stop measuring and weighing everything because you will know that you know that you know.
    If you do not become like children, you will not enter the Kingdom of God, these are the words of the Lord Jesus, not mine.
    Amen.

    1. caisson:
      "You will be a practitioner at last and stop measuring and weighing everything because you will know that you know."

      It seems to me that there are many practitioners who know [or rather believe] that they know. However, this does not necessarily mean that they are right. There are many people involved in very, very strong "practices" who are not necessarily right, and I don't mean 100% right, because I don't think a person can be infallible. From what I observe, if you are a non-believer [not necessarily in anything, for example, a non-believer in the Bible] you can also practice helping people, organizing charity actions, and so on. It seems to me that anyone can go out at any time and preach something, not necessarily the biblical Jesus, help the poor, preach love to people, and be fulfilled in this, but will we still be on the way to the Kingdom of God regardless of whether we do everything right? Is a person who does not believe in the biblical Jesus but at the same time helps people in various ways also on the way to Heaven, even though he does not believe in the Bible and therefore in the biblical Jesus? If we assume that it is, that doctrines and adherence to the proper principles of the Bible are not important, then we might as well assume that ecumenical movements are fine, and we should all unite to do something. As I have written before, it puzzles me that if Christians believe they are led by the same Spirit, the Holy Spirit, then why are they so divided, why are there so many differences in doctrine and opinion?

      "Unless you become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of God, these are the words of the Lord Jesus, not mine."

      As for this, it seems to me that, after all, we are not to be naive, gullible, and uncritical like children. As Paul wrote, we are to be like children when it comes to evil.

      , "Brethren, do not be children in thinking, but be in evil as infants, but in thinking be mature." 1 Paul to the Corinthians 14:20

      "Behold, I send you out as sheep among wolves; be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Matthew 10:16

    2. It sounds beautiful, but "immersed in water for the washing away of sins" - water does not save, it is symbolism and a sure step of showing the Christian community their change. This is not Hinduism.
      It "is" science - HEALTHY science (many verses calling for it are not to be quoted here), what opinion you have on a certain issue (science) is and such a notion and theology.
      Idealistic, false notions lead to disappointments and falls (Note 13:12).

  20. " There are oily tears flowing from the eyes of the Madonna on the icon of Our Lady of Scorpiosity. This is no joke. The miracle has already been addressed by the hierarchy. The Madonna's crying healed, among others, Richard F., who stopped feeling pain in his leg.

    As today's issue of "Super Express" reports, this amazing discovery was made by 16-year-old Łukasz Popławski from Terespol. It was in his house, before his eyes, from a humble picture of the Virgin Mary, tears began to flow. - It is a miracle! The Mother of God revealed her grace to me," the junior high school student says emphatically.

    The teenager, a junior high school student, is very religious - he goes to church every day, paints icons, reads about Orthodoxy. In his room he created a small corner for prayer. It is there that he placed a small oleodrint depicting an icon of the Mother of God Scoroposuchna (the One Who Fulfills Requests Quickly).

    One day, as he was praying before the image, he noticed tears flowing from the Madonna's eyes. They had an oily consistency. He informed his parish priest Jarosław Łoś about everything. The news about this amazing event spread very quickly. Believers began to flock to the Poplawskis' house. Then the painting was moved to the church.

    So far, the miraculous icon has healed two people. The first was a woman who anointed her hip with the tears of the Madonna. The people attending the prayer felt the scent of the perfume around them and the pain disappeared in an instant. The next person to be healed is Richard F. (63), who had suffered from pain in his leg for many years. After being anointed with the miraculous oil the man was healed.

    - This is something extraordinary. In November, a council of bishops will be convened to consider the matter of this icon. - informed "Super Express" journalists Andrzej Boublej, spokesman for the Lublin-Chelm Diocese. "

    1. Miracles alone are no evidence (for a particular denomination of movement or science),

      From Deuteronomy 13:1-5
      All these things, which I have commanded, thou shalt observe diligently to do: thou shalt add nothing and take nothing away. If a prophet, or a dream-explainer, shall arise in thee, and announce a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder shall be fulfilled, as he hath foretold thee, and afterwards shall say unto thee: "Let us go to the foreign gods - whom you have not known - and serve them," you shall not heed the words of that prophet or dream-explainer. For the Lord your God is testing you, wanting to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the Lord your God. You shall fear Him, obeying His commands. You will listen to His voice, serve Him and cling to Him.
      - And let's consider: when a Catholic sees such a miracle or an Orthodox person is happy and moved, when someone from the "biblical" current is rather frightened - emotions are playing on emotions, that's why a healthy teaching is so important.

      1. You are absolutely right, I gave this text because of these "miracles" around taking away pain - and such miracles are done by e.g. Todd White who does not do what the apostles do but refers to Acts and the Gospels. And his "miracles" don't compare to those of the apostles.

        I don't know what this man has in his heart, but in my opinion, if there are supernatural things in it, then demons are doing it and deceiving this Todd White and these "healed" people. Through these tricks they are misleading this man, and they are also misleading these "healed" people like these Catholics who believe that the pains were taken from them by Mary, but we know that it was not Mary.

        1. Yes, faith does not cause the object of belief-sentence and the imagery based on it-to be true. If I were still Catholic, pictorial miracles with oil or blood would confirm me in Marian devotion, and I wouldn't even ask about the biblical basis of the Mariocult - after all, the bishop is sanctified and the pope infallible etc.
          Basic logic: from truth only truth follows, from falsehood anything follows.

        2. Yes, the opponent creates various "miracles" to create the illusion of rationale for certain teachings, words. It is the master of lies let us remember.
          How much of this kind of thing is in charismatic practices, I don't know, but: falling backwards, gold dust, holy laughter, rolling on the floor, howling like animals, chaos in the assembly - it's actually not ok.

          As for tongues, James 3:2-16 indicates that the control of the body is in man's tongue. Why, then, should I speak something unintelligible and lose control of this important organ in order to "troll" myself?

  21. Adi, I am not talking about my own ideas but about the words of the Lord Jesus, "whoever believes and is baptized (will be saved.=Mk 16.16
    .1P3.20-21
    " Who sometimes disobeyed, when once God's patience waited in the days of Noah, when the corab was boiled, in which few (that is, eight) souls are preserved in the water.
    3:21 Which now baptism being a pattern, SAVES us (not the laying on of carnal defilement, but the promise together of a good conscience with God,) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
    I read this sentence like a child,You do what you want with it and with it,your choice.
    Nor did the apostles work miracles.
    I will not discuss any more with you on this particular subject, because the words of Jesus are not an oracle for you.
    The apostles immersed them IMMEDIATELY! -why? -for example.

    .Acts 10.48. 47
    Then Peter spoke up, "Who can refuse to baptize those who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he COMMANDED to baptize them in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Acts 8.36

    On their journey they came to some WATER: "Here is water," said the courtier, "what hinders me from being baptized?" ( 37 ) 38 And he ordered the cart to stop, and both Philip and the courtier went down into the water. And he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord took hold of Philip, and the courtier never saw him again. But he rode joyfully on his way.
    Acts 22.16
    Why are you procrastinating now? Get baptized and OBEY your sins by calling on His name!

    There is a biblical principle that every case should be based on 2 or 3 witnesses, (2 Cor 13.1; 5M 19.15)
    Mt 18.16
    - And if he will not listen, take with you one or two more, that the whole matter may be based on the word of two or three witnesses. ) So I have given you three places from the Scriptures.
    Baptism without! faith does not save,the Lord Jesus speaks of a package of faith+baptism=salvation.
    Unfortunately, a new doctrine is emerging that rejects immersion or baptism in water.
    Why the devil is so afraid of this immersion, people have such a problem with it, as if they were to be skinned alive in the water - that there is no doubt that there is power in it.
    The bad would not dissuade the good.
    You do not need to understand how it happens that he saves, it is enough that the Lord has assured that whoever believes (and here there is no dot notice) and is baptized (literally immersed) shall be SAVED.
    I wasn't going to risk my salvation by arguing whether to get in the water or not, especially since it was only once and no effort was required.
    So I jumped up, happy that I could do the Lord's will.
    Do what you want but don't poison others.
    Yes, it is not Hinduism it is Jesusism.
    They have already rejected Paul some, now they are rejecting water baptism.
    What's next? Probably one world religion.

    1. I am not rejecting water baptism, I am talking about its nature. The church, for example, believes that it is something magical that washes away original sin, and that it saves, or "saves".

    2. You missed a large part of the NT context by building a pattern on only 1 passage - that's not how you do it. See this:
      1 Corinthians 15:1-6 - nothing about water,
      1 Peter 3:20-21 - this about the Baptism of the Spirit (conversion to the Lord Savior),
      "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is God's gift;
      Not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph. 2:5,8-9"
      John 3:16

    1. Can you help? We can help.

  22. It is a noble goal but if we uproot these poor children from their ancestral land, will they be happy, will they not miss their parents?So many institutions are involved in this, are they not able to provide security, there on the spot... if the family scattered around the world creates a family... no, sooner or later their ties will disappear, the same is with the nation, there is degeneration.

  23. And one more thing...those who destroy nations must be annihilated, if they have support, then we must also support the smallest ones, and there is a majority of us, not tearing them away from their roots.

  24. Keep searching,there is nothing about water in the others,and there is nothing about water in the others.
    What did you do with the ones where it's about water.
    Adi, the Lord Jesus says it all too clearly, and the apostles put it into practice IMMEDIATELY.

    Why? Why?

    30 And having led them out, he said: "Gentlemen, what must I do to save myself?" 31 "Believe in the Lord Jesus," they answered him, "and you will save yourself and your house. 32 So they told the Lord's teaching to him and to all his household. 33 That same hour at night he took them with him, washed their wounds, and ASAP he was baptized with all his household. 34 He also brought them into his dwelling, set the table, and rejoiced greatly with the whole household that they had believed God.
    THAT'S EXACTLY WHY PAUL, with fresh wounds on his body, is immediately going to destroy them.
    Why not later, maybe with the wounds healed?
    No,sore, and they do it immediately.
    Did Paul deceive them?

    1. He rejoiced greatly that he believed God.Acts 16.31
      Adi,see how he believed God:it's a whole,package,you don't separate the immersion,see for yourself.

      1. Ok, but what matters is the overall teaching of Scripture as to the ISTITUTE of baptism, it is a certain step of obedience, but apostolic history is a "transitional" book.
        Either it was "performed" on the Cross of Golgotha or it was not - yet Scripture teaches that YES.
        "Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation, and if we make it so, we undermine the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ."

        1. You are to be buried in water at His death and resurrection.

      2. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."- Mark 16:16 Warsaw Bible

        1) " He who believes and is baptized will be saved "

        2) " whoever does not believe will be condemned "

        If water baptism were necessary for salvation then point two would also say this. If water baptism was necessary for salvation then the apostle Paul would never have said this :

        " I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, (15) lest anyone should say that you are baptized in my name. (16) I also baptized the house of Stephen; besides, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else. (17) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the good news, and not in wisdom of speech, lest the cross of Christ should lose its power."- 1 Corinthians 1:14-17 BW

        "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the good news" - clearly water baptism is not part of the good news.

        If water baptism were necessary for salvation, the Savior would have said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who believes and is not baptized will be damned.

        or as I wrote above : " whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned "

        I have my doubts whether the Savior was talking about water baptism at all when he spoke of it, but even if he did have water baptism in mind it is evident that it is not necessary for Salvation. Faith is necessary for it. But in my opinion this verse could be talking about the baptism that Christ gives. So to paraphrase: "Whoever believes in me will be baptized with the Holy Spirit through this faith and will be saved."

        " I baptize you with water unto repentance; but he that followeth me is stronger than I; I am not worthy to bear his shoes. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. " - Matthew 3:11 The Amplified Gdansk Bible

        Christ baptizes with the Spirit - this baptism is necessary for Salvation - thus : "He who believes in me will be baptized with the Spirit and will be saved" - this fits the whole message of the Bible. People like Torben Søndergaard who say that water baptism is necessary for salvation are wrong; they are adding something to the Gospel that is not part of it.

        1. There was once such a bizarre movement in the usa - they taught water baptism for salvation and only "in the name of Jesus". (as if the verbal formula was an incantation), led by some "prophet" I think, etc.
          but even charismatics don't teach that way 😀
          PS can one believe at all and not have the Spirit? Don't charismatics sometimes confuse the baptism with the filling with the Holy Spirit - teaching an additional "baptism by fire" after believing? From my "risirch" experiences so far, it seems that rather yes...

          1. Well, without revelation you see a formula and not an immersion into the mighty name of JESUS.
            You are born of the Spirit, it is like the genes of the Father but you still need to be filled with the power of the Father.
            To testify to Father's greatness you must have his wealth available to you in addition to his "genes".
            Immersion and filling are the same thing, and being born of the Spirit is different.

            1. Kesja on a biblical level you impress me, but politically we'll fight 🙂 .

          2. As far as I know, baptism meant just immersion in the original language. Baptism with the Holy Spirit refers to immersion in the Holy Spirit, which is simply equated with being filled with the Holy Ghost.

            "And when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, Who, having come there, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For he had not yet come upon any of them, for they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."
            - Acts 8:14-17

            This passage I associate says quite a bit on the subject of believing and receiving the Spirit. I assume it was about the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is a separate event from believing. I was baptized with the Holy Ghost a year after I was converted. If it was the same as being saved, then the apostles would not have bothered to pray for the people in Samaria.

        2. THINK LOGICALLY, IF THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE, THEN TALKING TO THEM ABOUT BURNING= BAPTISM IS WRONG. Why bury an old man when he is well, dead, sees no sin, needs no Savior.
          If you don't believe, you won't take the next step, you won't go into the water, because there is no one to wash, no one to bury and no new person will emerge.
          The Lord Jesus always spoke wisely and logically.
          Torben is not an authority for us, only the WORD.
          Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit, no one is needed to baptize, another person is needed to immerse in water. A corpse will not bury itself.
          As I recall, the Lord Jesus was immersed in water and filled with the Spirit.
          The apostles immersed them IMMEDIATELY! -why? -for example.

          .Acts 10.48. 47
          Then Peter spoke up, "Who can refuse to baptize those who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he COMMANDED to baptize them in the name of Jesus Christ.

          Acts 8.36
          "
          On their journey they came to some WATER: "Here is water," said the courtier, "what hinders me from being baptized?" ( 37 ) 38 And he ordered the cart to stop, and both Philip and the courtier went down to the W_O_D_Y. And he baptized him. 39 And when they came out of the W_O_D_Y, the Spirit of the Lord took hold of Philip, and the courtier never saw him again. But he rode on his way with joy.
          Acts 22.16
          Why are you WASTING now? Get baptized and BURN from your sins by calling on His name!
          Peter also commanded others to immerse, he himself did not do so with Cornelius
          Why?
          Why, for example, Paul did not heal his wounds, but with fresh wounds immediately immersed the guard, Peter also.
          Paul preached and went on, others could dive in as it takes time.
          Those convinced by Paul were dealt with by others.
          Why after believing the heart everyone was N-A-T-Y-CH-M-I-A-S-T immersed,immediately?Why everywhere in the water.
          Doesn't water mean water to you?
          Why this rush, why did Ananias say to Paul: Why Z-W-L-E-K-A-SZ, get up, immerse yourself and wash away your sins.
          Why?
          .Acts 10.48. 47
          Then Peter spoke up, "Who can refuse to baptize those who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he COMMANDED to baptize them in the name of Jesus Christ.
          They had already received the Holy Spirit, and yet Peter nevertheless immersed them in water.
          why immediately and in addition to the Holy Spirit also water.

          1. It's cool that I stirred up the topic,
            Again, you're giving me sort of directives, and my point is the essential teaching of Scripture, not fitting verses into our views or doctrines of denominations, churches we're in or not, or even practices or experiences.

            Now let me give you some interesting facts: The Azusa Street Awakening - a spiritual event in the history of Pentecostalism that sparked the rapid growth of the Pentecostal movement. It took place on April 9, 1906 at a prayer meeting at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Lee at 312 Azusa Street in Los Angeles.
            Lee supposedly had a "vision" where the 12 apostles showed him how to "speak in tongues." Then with a friend he prayed for the "baptism of the Spirit" and they began to speak in "tongues". in general this is interesting, look it up online - azusa street deception.

          2. You're focusing on Acts, I understand, but that's a theological error - it's the overall teaching that matters, the systematic otherwise of Scripture.
            You see it's very interesting - even Rafal Kudrasinski - opponent of "Paul's tares the apostle of the Gentiles" came to the conclusion that water baptism is not salvation. Now that's...

          3. "the mighty name of JESUS" -and for example in this powerful name pastors of the faith movement turn people over, use "holy laughter", which is unbiblical, and for many atheists this name is a fake horus, or colloquial "oh Jesus" and this "power" does not convince them, and at most is associated with Catholicism, etc.
            Human words do not have the power to change reality (God has the power to create with the Word) - on the contrary, teaches the faith movement such as Benny Hinn. Words have a reality-sound, meaning, emotional charge (although this depends on the individual and his associations and cultural environment in which he lives) and designation-designator - something or someone marked, bearing a given name - in this case the Person of the Lord Christ (the One who has the power).

  25. Acts 2.37-38- When they heard this, they were seized to the depths of their hearts: "What must we DO, brethren?" - they asked Peter and the other Apostles.
    1) 38″Return," Peter said to them.
    i2) let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and
    3) you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.=Acts 1.8-you will receive the power of the Holy Spirit.
    Peter says explicitly:
    1)repentance
    2) Baptism in the name of the LORD JESUS
    3)D. Sw. baptism.

    1. You don't make a doctrine out of 1 or even 2 verses, really.

    2. 1 Corinthians 15:1-6 - nothing about water,
      1 Corinthians 1:14-17 BW - Paul on his mission
      1 Peter 3:20-21 - it's about the Baptism of the Spirit (conversion to the Lord Savior, without God, the Holy Spirit there is no salvation, God is Spirit after all) - water is an IMAGE (KJV -figure-figure, image, representation) of what - internal baptism, because something cannot be an image of itself, water of water.
      1 Corinthians 12:1-111) I would not have you, brothers, ignorant of spiritual gifts. (2) You know that when you were pagans you were drawn irresistibly to dumb idols. (3) Well, I assure you that no one under the inspiration of the Spirit of God can say, "Jesus be damned! Nor can anyone say without the help of the Holy Spirit: Jesus is Lord.

      There are many verses about salvation by, through FAITH, without mentioning water baptism or any other requirement-John 3:16;Acts 16:31;Ephesians 2:8-9. If water is necessary for salvation, then the message of these parts is wrong,and then God's Word is contradictory (and it can't be, it's an integrated message).

  26. There are many verses about salvation by, through FAITH, without mentioning water baptism or any other requirement-John 3:16;Acts 16:31;Ephesians 2:8-9. If water is necessary for salvation, then the message of these parts is wrong,and then God's Word is contradictory (and it can't be, it's an integrated message).

    Reply to
    Add comment-you're right Kesja.

    1. You know how the falsity of the koran is best proven? By demonstrating a contradiction in it - vide channel Jesus or Mohammed. A contradiction is a basic, perceptible logical unit by human reason - something cannot simultaneously be and not be in the same respect. The Bible as inspired by God Himself - can not contradict each other, taking a few passages and making them into a comprehensive doctrine is an error typical of Catholicism, for example - "this is bread and my body" - from this and several similar expressions made the doctrine of transubstantiation which is carried out by a "priest", even though other passages of Scripture prohibit the consumption of blood. This is a denial of the message of Scripture.

    2. Then let us not commemorate the supper, for John says nothing about it in his description of the supper; let us only wash our feet, for he only saw it, since he only describes it.
      There is a biblical principle of 2-3 witnesses, not of repeating the same thing over and over again after it has been said several times.
      Mercy.
      I still don't have an answer why the apostles did this immersion immediately, even commanded it and accused it of procrastination.

      1. Mr. Kudrinski rejects Luke's thesis and undermines Peter's letter.
        Throwing that out there, there is nothing left for him to do but to consider water boredom as heresy.

        1. Why don't we have a lottery to see which book of the Bible is good and which is bad?

        2. But Christ spoke of doing in remembrance - by the way, the Supper is not salvific either, it is not a "Catholic sacrament". Anyway, let's not change the subject, we were talking about water baptism.
          The rule about 2-3 witnesses is not a heremeutical rule, it has a context.
          "Mercy" - you don't substantively address the arguments given, you always aim "next door".
          You don't apply the basic principle of reading-interpretation-hermeneutics: what matters is the overall teaching, the conclusions from the whole context of Scripture on a given issue. And grammar - GREEK (do you know koine Greek well? I don't either so I use hermeneutics and good theological background, I just don't trust my reason and little biblical knowledge).

          "Baptism, though an important institution of Christ, is not part of the gospel. To connect it with the gospel is to add a deed to the grace of God."
          Ryrie Charles "fundamentals of theology"
          also:
          "Acts 2:38 Proponents of the necessity of baptism understand this verse to mean that repentance and baptism lead to forgiveness of sins.
          Undoubtedly in New Testament times baptism was clear evidence of conversion, whether it was conversion to Judaism, turning to the message of John the Baptist, or finally turning away from sin in response to the call of the gospel. The refusal to be baptized raised legitimate doubts about the sincerity of the confession of new faith. For this reason, when the crowd asked Peter: "What shall we do, men brethren," he - quite naturally - replied that they should repent (change their mind and attitude toward Jesus of Nazareth) and be baptized (that is, give clear evidence of this change).
          While it is true that exegetically the text can be understood as saying that baptism is for (gr. eis) the forgiveness of sins, it is just as true to say that baptism is not for the purpose of obtaining the forgiveness of sins, but for the sake of obtaining that forgiveness (which occurred at rebirth). The word eis occurs in this sense in Matthew 12:41, which, rendered literally, reads, "they remembered (eis) the preaching of Jonah." It certainly does not mean that the Ninevites repented in order to hear the proclamation of Jonah, but because they heard it, which is well reflected in our translation. So also Acts 2:38 can be understood in the sense that people should repent and then be baptized because they had received forgiveness of sins. (See A.T.Robertson, Word Pic-tures in the New Testament, New York: Harper, 1930, vol. 3, pp. 35-36)."

          1. Old Testament folk were not baptized, did not celebrate the supper (Passover-substitute), but were often influenced by the Holy Spirit.
            There is no rule.
            And they will be participants in the Kingdom after all....
            Salvation is a thing beyond human sacred rites....
            Do you not understand the mercy of God?

        3. I had no idea about that... but it doesn't matter here

  27. Adi,some roll over and others wipe the ass of the sick for years in the mighty name of the Lord.
    Come on, get off this scam! and give me the answer to my very clear "why?" question.

    1. Let's not get upset. Take it easy...
      I have given you specifics, see also gotquestion - there are some really solid analyses of the water baptism issue and these specific passages. I don't need to prove anything more, the matter resolves itself with a deeper and systematic study. I have 2 more good personal sources who know the Bible really well, I can quote their opinion.

      1. Adi, but I personally ask you to explain to me WHY the apostles immersed them in water IMMEDIATELY and were not allowed to wait, and even Paul, wounded in the night, does it, and the eunuch, after Philip's explanation, DEMANDS that they be immersed.
        WHY? WHY?
        PLEASE!

        1. Why. - "In biblical times, a person who converted from one religion to another was baptized as a sign of conversion. Baptism was a way of expressing that decision publicly. Those who refused to be baptized were actually saying that they did not fully believe. So, in the belief of the apostles and early Christians, the idea of an unbaptized believer was not considered at all. When a person claimed to believe in Christ but was ashamed to publicly declare his faith, however, it indicated that he did not have true faith."

          On gotquestion these issues and specific verses are nicely explained I noticed, just take a look.

        2. And I ask you - why are you drawing far-fetched theological conclusions from this, ignoring the rest of the NT context I provided?
          PS remember that those were not times like now, there was no mass media, life was more public, it was easy to find out who was a Christ-follower and who was not, the apostles were not gods on earth either - they looked at the deeds of the people who joined.

  28. Maybe we should argue less and trust God more and trust Him completely - Magdula, you are right.

    1. Yes, but is it worth trusting in material water?....

      1. Adi 🙂 - that sentence from my comment was closely related to the thread on the question asked by Detective: does the Bible teach that charismatic gifts have ceased in our time. I also meant that, as we know, even among "fundamentalist" Christians there are still clear divisions leading to arguments, unfortunately, which should give us a lot to think about - by arguments, of course, I don't mean people writing on this blog - well, because we don't argue, we just express our views:-)
        I would also add that it is perfectly understandable for Bible Christians to debate, admonish and even chastise one another, and also to have a basis in the Bible itself, and we must remember one thing - at a given moment each of us may have a different level of knowledge, so to speak, and so at this stage we are to "complement" one another in our knowledge and understanding by exchanging opinions on various matters. None of us yet has a patent on the "full" understanding of the Word of the Bible.
        On the subject of baptism - I agree with you - it is certainly not a condition of salvation - but at the same time I believe that according to Scripture it is not meaningless - it is important, or at least it should be for those who have fully believed in the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and its importance in salvation.
        I unfortunately haven't had a water baptism yet, but I really want to and plan to in the near future...

        1. Thank you for your answer, sometimes I seem to be a stalker, but in such fundamental matters of faith one has to be detailed. I do not fully trust my knowledge, and theology - let's not deceive ourselves - is necessary, but biblical. It is also a field of "science" and since we have no education in classical languages and decent hermeneutics of the Holy Scriptures, we must respect decent Bible studies from good sources. On the subject of water baptism, I have 7 sources that agree with Scripture. I can put them on my hamster if anyone wants.

    2. The apostles also debated, rebuked, etc., but to argue about mere words or to show antipathy to someone is not nice.

      "The sad thing is that some people are "sanctimoniously convinced" of the rightness of their views on secondary issues regarding faith, that they can push other believers away from fellowship with God and not even allow a dissenting opinion on the subject. This is also legalism. Many legalists among believers make the mistake of adopting views that come from a wrong understanding of the Word or their own tradition."

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